Different Strokes for Different Folks featuring Bunyamin Cankirli

Transcript

Rob Dwyer (00:02.734)
While it's definitely not a record, I have Bunyamin back for his third appearance on Next In Que. Thanks for joining, Bunny. How are you?

Bunyamin Cankirli (00:14.126)
Thanks for having me. Doing great, doing great. It's been a minute, it seems. Doesn't feel like that, but it seems. So happy to be back, have a discussion with you, attack a few great topic points, and see where it goes.

Rob Dwyer (00:20.804)
and has.

Rob Dwyer (00:29.964)
I know that my loyal listeners will know exactly who you are and we can probably count them on my fingers and yours. But for those that may be new to the show, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and what your role is at Concentrix as well?

Bunyamin Cankirli (00:37.612)
you

Bunyamin Cankirli (00:56.59)
Yeah, sure. My name is Bunyaman, Ken Curly. People call me Bun. It's just an easy way to remember me, I guess. Originally born and raised in Belgium, moved to the States 2013, 2014. I have started with a company called Concentrix. Really the same year I moved to the States. My first love, I should say. And I've kind of done quite a few roles within the organization.

starting at the entry level, mainly in ops and delivery. Just recently, as Ram, you may have noticed, of took different route within the organization in the solutions world, which has been nothing but fun so far. So we're really, really excited. So yeah, that's just a little bit about me. I have maybe some personal nuggets in there. I have four kids, two boys, two girls. They keep me quite busy. That's my real job. My side gig is concentrics.

But yeah, that's a little bit about me just in short.

Rob Dwyer (02:00.28)
Yeah, I am curious. Let's talk really quickly. Are all the kids playing soccer? Any of them?

Bunyamin Cankirli (02:08.086)
Not yet. Not yet. You know, know, it's interesting because so, the, oldest he's kind of getting at that age, he's almost eight. So he is slowly getting into sports. The others are quite, quite young. So, but am I brainwashing them to play soccer? Yes, I am for sure. Early on, you got to start early. but my oldest is interesting because, and I have no idea where it's coming from, who's teaching him this, but he's growing this.

Rob Dwyer (02:26.767)
Ha ha!

Bunyamin Cankirli (02:37.418)
interest for baseball. So I don't know where that's coming from. I don't know the rules. I don't watch it. I'm not familiar at all. So I'm a little scared, but we'll see how it goes.

Rob Dwyer (02:41.252)
Ha ha!

Rob Dwyer (02:50.905)
Okay, well at some point we can have a quick baseball tutorial. I will be your guide and I recognize that when you grow up in the rest of the world, it's soccer first and then there are some also rands, baseball not one of them unless you happen to be in like, Korea. Their baseball is big.

Bunyamin Cankirli (02:56.141)
Okay.

Bunyamin Cankirli (03:17.441)
Yeah.

Rob Dwyer (03:18.122)
But your kids are growing up in the states and you know, it's the national pastime even though football seems to be a little bit more popular these days baseball is the national pastime and You're in Florida play baseball year -round in Florida. So To be expected a little bit. I know you didn't expect it, but I'm just saying

Bunyamin Cankirli (03:23.106)
Yes.

Bunyamin Cankirli (03:36.77)
You can, yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (03:44.056)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I forgot to say it kind of in my intro, but I was born and raised in Belgium, right? So obviously baseball is not something like, it's just, you don't get in contact at all. I mean, you'd have to be an American living in Belgium, guess, maybe then, but outside of that, there's almost no way we don't, you don't get in touch with it. So again, I just, no idea where it's coming from, who's teaching him. I need to figure out who the person is.

Maybe I go from there. We'll see. But he does play soccer as well. But he told me that's his second favorite.

Rob Dwyer (04:22.778)
Well, know, Sacrifice Fair is pretty good. For those that don't know, you and I have an interesting connection. So you're from Belgium. Today you live in Florida. But you once lived in Wichita, Kansas, which is where I am now living. It's been so long. I don't even know if you know that I've moved back to the Wichita area. So...

Bunyamin Cankirli (04:37.187)
Yes.

Bunyamin Cankirli (04:42.796)
That is true, yes.

Rob Dwyer (04:51.551)
You and I can talk about all things.

Bunyamin Cankirli (04:57.88)
Yeah, nothing, not much. Okay, yeah. I've been there. I've lived there for three years. I think it was almost three years. Interestingly enough, I loved it. People always expect me to tell them these horror stories of how horrible it was, but I really don't have much like stories like that. I've enjoyed it. The quietness. I say quietness, but that's relative to I came from Orlando to which, right? Orlando is a touristic place. Millions of people all year round. And so, relative to Orlando, it's yeah, it is.

That's true for sure, but I don't know. I did not mind that. I had a good time honestly

Rob Dwyer (05:34.126)
Yeah, I like the quiet as well and maybe it's because I'm getting older, but it's suiting me right now. What I want to talk to you a little bit about and I think you have interesting perspective on this because a you grew up outside of the US and B you work for

Bunyamin Cankirli (05:48.556)
Thank

Rob Dwyer (06:04.036)
in the contact center space, one of the largest multinational CEOs. And so you're working with people around the globe, regardless of the role that you're

all over the globe. So let's talk about cultural bias, cultural sensitivity, and kind of what that means. I'm just going to let you start, and we'll follow up. But give me your just kind of basic thoughts on this.

Bunyamin Cankirli (06:38.072)
Yeah, it's such an interesting topic and so much to talk about. It's almost like, where do you start? Right. And I say that because I probably, when I reflect on my upbringing, there's kind of a lot of that happening. Right. I mean, this kid with Turkish roots, the grandparents moved to Western part of Europe for better opportunities. I then am the next couple of generations of that. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases being treated second class citizen because of that, right. Having faced that quite often.

but still integrating as much as I can, being part of the community at value to my surroundings. And then to make matters worse, then I moved to the States later in life, right? So it's just, I have been in and around quite a bit the interesting environments where I can see and make quite a bit the observations of how different cultures work. And...

That's kind of where the world is going today, really, especially with technology that I believe that's it's expediting that process where everyone's close, regardless of the distance. And so there's much more interacting, mingling, whatever you want to call it happening. so one interesting thing that I have picked up on just looking back and thinking, out loud is kind of how. Because there's so much different cultures coming together.

there is this thing called cultural relativity. basically, long story short, what it really means is to some people, one group of people from a particular culture can seem rude and to another, they can seem perfectly polite. But it's the same people they're observing, but it's because the point of view is very different. The interpretation of what's happening is very different too. And that is something that I have picked up on.

quite a bit over the last few years. We actually recently had a culture event within our organization. And this was a big topic point as well around, because you deal with some, like you said, you deal with so many people around the world, how to get the best out of everyone and how to partner in the process, right? And a big topic was the cultural relativity, the cultural differences and how we can basically turn that into like a positive for us, right? And one of the topics was also cultural relativity.

Bunyamin Cankirli (09:02.946)
And as the presenters were talking about it, I'm thinking, yeah, that's exactly kind of what I'm observing and really living, right? Because of the richness in the environment of my culture, right? Oftentimes I find myself confused too, because at home, the Turkish culture was primarily given in school. was a Belgian kind of culture that was primarily driven. And then I moved to the States. tried to...

integrate and get used to kind of how things work here. And so that kind of that journey, you can easily write a book on that on the passages and the differences and but I'm someone that believes the more different we are, the more beautiful it gets. Not someone that looks at differences and thinks that's bad thing, like that's negative and stay away from me, right? I think the more different, the more beautiful because you get to

Learn from each other. every imagine if everyone's the same, there's nothing to learn about each other. We eat the same. We talk the same. We we do everything the same way. There's nothing to learn from each other. But when it's different, then now you have to listen. You have to observe. You have to learn. And I think that's the part that makes it beautiful. And when you do that, when you listen more, instead of looking at it from more judgmental view, you start realizing as there is

many differences, there's also many similarities, which is interesting because we think that contradicts each other, but it really isn't contradicting because there's much differences because there are different elements within each culture and each group of people and countries. But fundamentally, there's a lot of similarities, right? Everyone wants to be happy. Everyone wants to take care of their families. Like, there's just so many similarities, too. And it's just the way they build up on those fundamentals seem to be different.

And that's what you observe on the outside, right? But what you don't observe is pretty similar, but you only get to know that if you listen, if you observe, if you have a conversation, you ask questions and people need to do more of that. I feel that that's not happening today as much as it should. Just an observation. That's a lot of talking, but yeah.

Rob Dwyer (11:06.73)
Mm.

Rob Dwyer (11:18.318)
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. You you hit on something that I wanted to talk a little bit about, and that was the observation of communication and how people come off. there's this idea of high context cultures when it comes to communication and low context cultures when it comes to communication. And what that really means is how direct

people communicate versus kind of how I maybe soften things up or beat around the bush. And that is very cultural. So there are cultures where direct communication just right. There's no beating around the bush. I'm just going to tell you exactly what I think. And I'm not going to soften it up. Those can be easy to understand, but also to someone who maybe comes from a

much more high context culture feels rude and vice versa. The other way, if I am speaking in a high context, right? Where you kind of have to read between the lines to understand what it is I'm trying to communicate. be really confusing for someone who's in a low, grows up in a low context culture to understand what the heck is it that you're asking me? Like, just tell me what you want to tell me.

can be the feeling that they get from that. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience along those lines?

Bunyamin Cankirli (12:49.964)
Yeah, I mean, that's, those are really key elements, I think of sometimes misunderstandings for sure, especially in the corporate world where you have to now work together. And it's very different for you than it is for someone else. I do think I see that I see that in the US quite a bit where it's, it's, it's very high context in that everything is written out. We need to step by step. This is what we're going to do. Let's set expectations. We're going to, and like everything is

basically written out to the T almost to have a conversation. There is no confusion, but then some of maybe let's say, for example, more Asian cultures, not all of them, but some of them, it's, very low context and it's, it's almost like from my gesture of my body language, you should kind of know where this conversation is going and everyone's on the same page. And that works if, if you have the conversation within that same low context group, right? But the moment you introduce high context people within the mix,

That could get a bit interesting at times, maybe funny to some, a bit confusing. It depends on how you interpret the discussion. I do think people tend to gravitate to what's the right answer. I think from my experience, I don't think there's a right answer, like in the sense that everyone has to be this way. Right. I think the best way to kind of get the best out of everyone involved within the same team is

To one, you have to remind people of why we're all here, right? And every organization typically has a mission, has a vision, has a culture belief, right? And I think the more you can gather people around those principles, something called carefully paying attention starts happening because people are more open up to learning from each other in that way. And I think when you can start creating that kind of that dynamic,

people put in the effort to understand how can I get the best out of this relationship? And then people are more open to, I don't want to say necessarily change, but people are more open to finding a way to work with you, to work with the team in a way that's going to again, benefit everyone versus being stuck on this is how it's supposed to be. And that's why I always tell people to be careful with trying to find one way. This is how we should operate. because that may not always be the answer.

Bunyamin Cankirli (15:15.022)
sometimes the answer is bringing awareness around the differences and then finding ways and little mechanisms to bring the best out of everyone. And I think again, I I said it a bit earlier too around, you know, listening and observing. It's so underrated, I feel. But for me, what has worked so far is, you know, I believe 50 % of, especially in leadership roles being successful, 50 % of it is if,

some may argue more and I may not disagree, is really listening, right? It's really listening and being available. And I think sometimes that does so much more than you trying to figure it out on your own on how to get past the conversation or challenge to find a solution. And so I think it's a little bit of a balance. I don't think that's the easiest thing to solve, by the way, but certainly we see groups around the world who come together and can do some really...

Rob Dwyer (16:03.202)
you

Bunyamin Cankirli (16:13.952)
interesting and amazing things that would benefit everyone eventually. I think that's kind of what's really important. And again, you have to educate yourself on it too. You have to be open to learn about these differences. Someone like me, I think I may have a little bit of the benefit or the advantage because of my upbringing, right? Of the different cultures around me moving to a different continent.

marrying someone that's completely out of my culture, out of my, you know, what I'm used to, really everything different, right? Religion, culture, whatever, And at home, a different situation at home, right? It's just all those things coming together. And I think.

Bunyamin Cankirli (17:00.376)
During those moments, you pay attention, you make your observations. I think it could really benefit you. And I think I have a lot to thank kind of that type of upbringing into how it's helping me today in the organization dealing with different types of people. It helps building those relationships much easier. People connect more easier to kind of who you are because of kind of your experience and what you've done with it. So I think it has helped me, I believe.

Rob Dwyer (17:29.262)
Yeah. You know, you just talked about something that about making sure that people understand why we're here, right? And focusing on the goals of the team, the mission of the team. And we talked about soccer a little bit. I know that our coach and

Bunyamin Cankirli (17:29.816)
for sure.

Bunyamin Cankirli (17:41.037)
Yeah.

Rob Dwyer (17:54.532)
I'm sure that there are a lot of parallels, but can you talk about the difference between an athletic contest where it's two teams going up against each other, right? Versus an organization that may have multiple teams, but really ultimately they're all on the same team. How do you make that point? Because I think

A lot of teams within organizations look at it as we're fighting against each other, right? Whether it's for budget or resources or recognition, whatever the case may be. Can you talk more about that?

Bunyamin Cankirli (18:30.968)
Yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (18:40.834)
Yeah, that's really a good point. I talked to this. Sometimes I'll join, used to do that more often, but new hire classes and this would be one of the topics I would explain to them on how we see the team effort. And I would give them the sports example, right? And the example is as follows that, let's say that you want a basketball team, for example, right? And you're the star player, right?

triple doubles, great assists, great rebounds. You have everything going for you, right? But your team is losing every game. Now think about how relevant your individual performance is in that context. It's irrelevant. It does not matter. Because ultimately in sports you get judged by, rightfully so, the championships, the accomplishments, the accolades, the records and all of that. So you can be a great star player, but team isn't winning then becomes irrelevant. So the...

The point I'm making here is within the organization is very similar. You can be a great employee, a great leader within the organization, but how much is that really helping the organization versus just you? And I think making that click is really critical because again, you can have great stats, but if the organization is losing, are you really winning? Well, the answer is you're not just straightforward. You're not winning, right? You may lie to yourself.

that you are, but you're not. Right. And that's the part that, you know, where the sports and the corporate world is so similar is that teams who understand we have to work together. Yes, I have my own little agenda, right. And there's nothing wrong with being the best within your team. Right. You keep pursuing that, but understand that it becomes irrelevant if your team isn't winning. So the idea should be what can I do to help the people around me, especially in leadership role? That's even more important, really.

Because only then you can, you can talk about winning, right? So maybe that means if you're a player, you may have to give the ball more, find your teammates more, let them score and you, and you give the assist or read the place better, help your teammates more, run a little more, even if you feel like you shouldn't, cause you've already done X, Y, and Z, right? Whatever it takes to win basically. And the same way, once the players understand that they start winning more, the same way the organization operates is

Rob Dwyer (20:42.852)
Mm -hmm.

Bunyamin Cankirli (21:08.034)
The more people within the organization understand that, the more chances that organization has to be successful. You know, I tell people all the time, eventually it's about getting creative, right? For example, there's a very famous saying from the village my grandparent is from, and it goes, a village where everyone's thinking the same probably isn't doing any thinking, right? And basically it talks about if everyone's

doing the same thing, it means everyone's just following. And you can't expect creativity to come from that, right? And the point there is you have to find creative ways. And that may mean sometimes you bump heads and you disagree and there's some conflict there, but truly that's where creativity comes to life. Again, everyone thinks the same, everyone's following. There's no creativity there. Don't expect too much from that team. And so that's why you see like, when you see documentaries of great teams, you see all of the conflicts, right?

You see all of the team players that may have fought, but then the next day they go out and, you know, they, went to championship. And so there's a time and a place to have those moments too, just understanding that sometimes that's needed to build a championship team. It's the same thing with the organizations. You're going to have people, especially creative people, disagreeing at times, not being happy with each other at times. But if they remind themselves enough that, this is still, we're still part of the same team.

My vision statement is the same as yours. My mission statement is the same as yours. Our goals, you know, especially at the organization level is the same, right? Our departments may be slightly different. Yeah, that's true. But ultimately all of that at the organization level is the same. And the idea should be, how can I help for all of us to get there? Again, not just me. I'm just part of the puzzle, but if it's just me, then I didn't understand organizational success. And that's one of the...

stories I kind of share with new hires in particularly because especially going into industry like ours, especially at the entry level, it's easy to just, I'm just thinking about myself, right? But early on getting them to understand what organizational success really means, I think is very helpful for them in their career as well, because they make that switch sooner, right? Cause usually that switch happens when they move up and they become a team leader or they become a manager. But think about how powerful it could be if they can make that switch even before that. So.

Rob Dwyer (23:30.148)
Yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (23:36.918)
I think there's quite a bit similarities between sports and the corporate world and that's what really excites me.

Rob Dwyer (23:42.97)
When you listen to coaches or teammates in the world of sports, and I don't care what sport it is, you often hear about another player. That person makes everyone else around them better. Like that's one of the biggest compliments that you can get as an athlete in a team setting is that you make everyone around you better. It doesn't necessarily mean

Bunyamin Cankirli (24:02.348)
Yeah.

Rob Dwyer (24:12.026)
You had the most points or you filled the stat sheet. It means that your presence brings the team to perform better than they would in your absence. And we even start seeing that in advanced metrics. know basketball is a great example of this. I think they do the same in soccer as well, which is really a

Bunyamin Cankirli (24:15.168)
Absolutely.

Rob Dwyer (24:40.888)
plus minus, and it's about how the team performs when you're on the court or on the field from a scoring perspective versus when you're not. the players where the team performs better, regardless of whether you're scoring or not, it's a measure of how the team performs when you're actively on the And I think that's a metric that

Bunyamin Cankirli (24:45.827)
Yeah, right.

Rob Dwyer (25:08.076)
is exactly an illustration of what you're talking about. It's, do I make those around me better?

Bunyamin Cankirli (25:18.478)
Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Dwyer (25:19.364)
That's a great thing to strive for, absolutely.

Bunyamin Cankirli (25:23.16)
Yeah, and like I said, the sooner someone with the organization can understand that and really live that, I think it's very beneficial, very, very beneficial. So that's why as as people join in any organization, think having those conversations early on, think is, critical to unlock that early on. so yeah, very, very important.

Rob Dwyer (25:44.814)
Well, and as someone who started as an agent, like many of us do, right? I think in this industry, when you talk to a lot of people in leadership positions throughout the industry, you hear people start as an agent, but that's not always the case. But you're another example of this as someone who has been a team leader, an operations manager, an associate director, a site director.

Bunyamin Cankirli (25:50.199)
Yes.

Bunyamin Cankirli (26:03.363)
Okay.

Rob Dwyer (26:15.0)
Now you've moved into a solutions architect role. Like there are pathways that you can take, but it means early on as that agent, need to be forward thinking about both how I make the team better and how I.

Bunyamin Cankirli (26:32.195)
Yeah.

Rob Dwyer (26:38.714)
can do more things, but the two go hand in hand, right? If I'm going to get noticed, it's probably because I am that player that makes the rest of the people around me better. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Bunyamin Cankirli (26:51.074)
Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, I think about as soon as you said that I thought about something right away because I think it fits perfectly in this conversation. and I honestly, I wish I had come to this realization much sooner, but Hey, we all, we all learn at one point and the timelines are different for everyone. But I remember like when I first started out,

They used to tell me about this rule. treat others how, know, how you want to be treated. Right. I mean, this is at this point, everyone has heard this saying, I'm sure. and obviously it's all about, Hey, how you want to be treated? You want to treat your customer that way. So, you know, make sure you think about that. Of course that doesn't work. Right. I mean, as you know, not everyone's like you, so not everyone's going to want to be treated the way you would want to be treated. So clearly that didn't work. Right.

Then I got introduced to another rule, which said, treat others how they want to be treated. I said, okay, that's a little interesting. That's a little better. That makes a little more sense maybe. But through experience, I also started realizing if we're really raising the bar and we want the best integrated services, best experience, customer experiences, it's not enough, right? It took me months, even years to kind of understand like, what else is there? Cause that's quite a good rule, right?

Then I got introduced to this rule, I think this is where you really raise the bar and they call it the platinum rule. And the rule is treat others how they didn't even know they could be treated. And to me, that's the rule you go by because it's all about adding value. Whether it's the people around you, whether it's the customer you're interacting with, whether it's the clients you're interacting with. I think that is the most important thing because

customers, clients, will always come to you and say, I need, you I want this or I need this, but you do your research and you realize actually that's not, if, this is your problem, that's not what you need. Let me tell you about this, you know, great solution. And, and then, you know, you kind of basically you give them something they didn't even think about it. And to me, that's adding true value when you can help someone solve their problem in a way they didn't, they didn't even think about, they didn't even know what's possible. And that platinum rule, think.

Bunyamin Cankirli (29:10.646)
applies in any role that you're in within any organization in our industry. again, I wish I had kind of understood that sooner, but that rule for me changed everything. I started realizing.

The golden rule, the diamond rule, great, but they don't always work. This one I feel really kind of encompasses quite a bit because what client wouldn't love that you're solving their problem, but in a much more efficient way, they didn't even think about it. Right. And, and when you start adding value like that to people around you, to the clients, the customers you're interacting with, I think that's really when you see that true success is happening for you, but also around you. I think, yeah. So anyone listening, who's starting off with the.

Rob Dwyer (29:38.917)
Yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (29:55.268)
with the rule, treat others how you want to be treated, I would tell them skip to the platinum rule, by the way. That's going to help you quite a bit.

Rob Dwyer (30:03.986)
I would tell them skip to the episode of next in queue where I talked with Milan Batonich about this very topic and the name of the episode is you're not golden ruling yet. So for those listeners and or watchers who have not heard that episode, I highly recommend it. I'd like to talk a little bit about

Bunyamin Cankirli (30:15.384)
Okay.

Rob Dwyer (30:30.638)
some concrete examples. When we talk about really recognizing differences in culture and the differences in the people that we work with, maybe you can provide some examples of some times where you learn some lessons. Maybe things weren't as successful as you wanted them to be, but really some interactions that have a

in the past and really what you learned from those interactions that you were able to apply going forward that other people might be able to learn from.

Bunyamin Cankirli (31:14.151)
So many examples. me like, where do we? Yeah. mean, especially in leadership roles, I feel that, it's not so much kind of how much you fail. it's, it's more so every time you failed of those times, how many times did you learn and, have gotten better? Right. I think. And so there's definitely some times I'm trying to think of one specific example.

where I want to think about more of a communication style example, because I think those are interesting, especially because a lot of us work in remote environments, not all of us, but a lot of us. And then you have that layer of the communication, which obviously isn't going to make it easier. But there was a time where we were working on a project. had to, obviously, deadlines. And you have to get the project done on time.

I had someone who was, who was reporting to me. was years ago, but I had someone who was reporting to me and was suspiciously quiet during kind of the project conversations. Probably should have picked on that. I didn't. and we were kind of committing to a bunch of stuff, right? And I'm thinking, you know, he's quiet. So, you know, we're good. Little did I know him being quiet meant things are actually not good, but I don't know how to say no to my boss. So I'm kind of.

trying my best and I'll struggle in the process, right? Didn't pick up on that, obviously. And so of course we missed deadlines. you know, and you know, we have this conversation about, know, what's happening. There was a ton of challenges with getting some of that stuff done. Now we eventually got it done and things were good. That's, guess the good news. But for me, it was a good lesson about, you know, sometimes you think people are quiet. Cause for me, someone asks me and I'm like thumbs up everything and I'm quiet.

In my world, that means let's just move on. Like I'm good. Let's get, let's get, let's make some progress. Right. But I understood it for different people that quiet actually means quite a bit. The noise, it actually means I need help. This is I'm struggling. Right. So understanding, that was key for me. So one of the things I started adjusting is, when I was having conversations going forward with the same person, but also other people who I may have done kind of the same thing in the past and not even noticed it.

Bunyamin Cankirli (33:40.908)
really asking them almost like recap, like, are we going to do? Right? Like, what are we going to do to get to the finish line? And have them kind of tell me. And I learned that when I do that, in a way that's partnering, of course, I'm trying to get their take on how do we do this? Do you have something to add? Is there something we could do differently? I started quickly noticing, depending on how well or how bad they articulate, we're in good shape here. And so that really helped me.

kind of going forward and let them articulate how we're going to make progress, how we're going to solve this and what are the next steps. If there are struggles with the articulation, probably we need to have other conversations on what help do you need? Where are we struggling? What are the pain points? And really take your time to have those discussions instead of just assuming, hey, people are quiet, let's just move on. So think that was, for me, a good lessons learned of everyone is a little different when it comes to.

teamwork and team effort and deadlines. And that's definitely an adjustment I have made and just really being very clear and involving them in the conversation of how we're going to make progress. think that gives you quite a bit the insights. And again, you have to be on the listening side and make your observation whether or not we're in good shape here or there's some other conversation we need to have. That has helped me quite a bit because I do believe once I started doing that more, I started getting in front of those.

challenges. that was one thing I can think of, of the so many things where there was lessons learned for sure.

Rob Dwyer (35:13.744)
It's a great, it's a great lesson. mean, we like to assume, look, you're a great communicator, right? And so when you communicate something, it's easy for a lot of people to assume, right? We're on the same page. We've just had this conversation, whether it was a dialogue or more of a monologue.

Right? We were both present. Words were said. And we're on the same page. And what you're saying is, it turns out we may not be on the same page. But I'm only going to know that if I seek your understanding so that I know that you're looking at things exactly the same way that I am, or at least in the same ballpark. Right? There may be some.

Bunyamin Cankirli (35:47.896)
Good to go.

Bunyamin Cankirli (36:01.059)
Yeah.

Rob Dwyer (36:08.408)
some differences, which is even better because then we can talk through those because you may find out, you've got a slightly different take on this, but I like that take. Maybe we should pursue that. And that ability to have that conversation is really.

Bunyamin Cankirli (36:20.962)
Yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (36:29.08)
Yeah, I think, I think what I have found is sometimes someone being quiet is actually very loud and someone who's being allowed, they actually don't know what they're talking about. so it's, so the point I think is you really have to just pay attention and ask certain questions where people will elaborate and give you their take. That's going to help you figure out like, okay, are we really on the same page? Do we really understand the expectations or do we have trouble? Because being allowed sometimes doesn't mean that you know what we're doing here.

And sometimes again, being quiet, not saying anything also doesn't confirm that you understand what we're doing here either. So, and I think that's sometimes where, especially because we're in such a fast paced environment, we're moving fast. That's how people sometimes, I think make their conclusions of, we're on the same page. Cause he said they were, they were loud and clear. And then that may not always be the case. So, and other cases that may be the case. Yes. But, you're dealing with people and everyone's different. Even one thing I've learned is within.

cultures, people can be different, right? You can't really say this person is from this culture, they're high context or they look, that's not how that works, right? Yes, there is kind of a, you can see a somewhat of a trend, can see somewhat of similarities, but as long as you're dealing with people, you can't really say, he's from this country. I know how to handle this person. You're going to be in trouble if you think that way.

Rob Dwyer (37:48.11)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because for multiple reasons, Countries have all different kinds of cultures. Even the more homogenous types of countries. mean, in the US, you know, we have famously been labeled the melting pot. so we've got all kinds of cultures in the US. there are even more homogenous countries out there who still have

Bunyamin Cankirli (37:59.809)
Absolutely.

Rob Dwyer (38:17.098)
all kinds of different cultures embedded within them. And you don't, and there are so many different things that inform it. You even talked about, right, the religion is an aspect that informs your culture, what you get at home versus what you get at school. So your peer group versus your family, those things help inform culture. And so there's just so many different variables that

Bunyamin Cankirli (38:20.318)
yes.

Bunyamin Cankirli (38:38.443)
yeah.

Rob Dwyer (38:46.532)
While it's important to be aware of it, you can't always nail things down. But that also leads me to another question that I have for you, which is, you know, I think some people will think being aware is, you know, PC or it's, it's about,

being soft on things or potentially stereotyping. And I think I want to be mindful that that's not what we're talking about. So can you talk a little bit about that aspect and why it's not that?

Bunyamin Cankirli (39:18.584)
Yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (39:34.54)
Yeah, I think that's that's so critical. And I do believe that's why some people are very skeptical about this whole thing where they interpret it as well. That's just giving folks an excuse to not do something because they are from this part of the world. And absolutely, that's not obviously what we're advocating or even explaining. Right. What we're talking about here when it comes to culture, cultural relativity differences, it's really to help you to

Unlock your view on how you can get the best out of that person not the opposite not to make excuses for them missing something That's that's not what this exercise is really about the awareness is more about for you to understand how you can now maneuver Within such team which in such organizations so you can get the best out of the people around you right and That's the whole point really that the whole point is exactly that You still have to set the expectations right if the deadline is Tuesday. It's not because this person is from this country He thought that was Wednesday

That's a very easy and excuse my language idiotic way to kind of look at this whole thing and people have to understand this is The more awareness you can give yourself on this topic. It's actually helping you become a better leader better person Right. It isn't to make the people around you lazy or give them excuses. Absolutely not I think if you understand that too, you probably more open to okay. Let me engage Let me learn let me educate myself a little bit more on it because

You'll be surprised you'll have the opposite effect. You'll actually have, you'll find it easier to hold people accountable because you can kind of speak on the same frequency, so to speak. can kind of level set the way, the tone, the approach you want to have on the conversation instead before where you didn't have any awareness and you're on one frequency and they're on one frequency and there's just constant friction. So us bringing this and saying the awareness is key is to actually solve that.

Right there. So if anything, it's going to benefit you. you want to be a better leader. You should absolutely want to kind of engage and learn and educate yourself on this thing. that would be kind of my message or my response to people who view it that way.

Rob Dwyer (41:33.486)
Yeah.

Rob Dwyer (41:47.992)
I don't want to make too strong of a comparison, but we've talked about the analogy of sports and coaching as it relates to this. And great coaches recognize that I don't treat every player the same. Because if I treat every player the same, I am not going to get the best performance out of every player. I need to know what motivates player A.

Bunyamin Cankirli (41:55.693)
Yes.

Bunyamin Cankirli (42:06.145)
Absolutely.

Rob Dwyer (42:17.477)
may be wildly different than what motivates player B, right? And so great coaches know like, okay, this person I'm gonna publicly call out that they're not playing up to par, right? Or that they're doing something wrong. And I may have another player where if I do that, they're just gonna shut down, nothing out of them going forward. Being able to recognize that is a skill. And this is a very similar type of

Bunyamin Cankirli (42:17.995)
Absolutely.

Bunyamin Cankirli (42:22.532)
yes.

Rob Dwyer (42:46.092)
skill in understanding different facets that will help me get the most out of all the people that I'm working for, which ultimately, for me as a leader, if I'm a leader, it's good for me. But even if I'm not a leader, even if I'm a peer among this group, it's good for me that the team works really well together.

Bunyamin Cankirli (42:57.012)
yes, so powerful.

Bunyamin Cankirli (43:16.974)
100%. Yeah. I mean, a hundred percent. I couldn't, couldn't agree more. And that's why, I more recently I got into, so obviously I was always a soccer fan. That's not a secret. That's going to continue to be a passion of mine. but just sports in general, more recently, last couple of years, I would say I've been more kind of observing sports from a business angle versus just a game that's being played on the court or on the field, on the pitch. and.

That's when I started uncovering much more like of the similarities and of the interesting facts of kind of the business side of sports. very soon, by the way, in Jacksonville, Florida, we're going to have a professional soccer team, two professional soccer teams. One will be in division three and one will be in division two. I believe they'll both have men and women's team. Actually, one of the teams, women's will be in division one.

a league called USL Super League, which had its inaugural season this year. Very interesting stuff happening there. And so I'm observing a lot of kind of their doings as well on how they build those teams and, you know, maybe a message out to them from this conversation. Hey, I'm here to help, you know, where I can, but because that's my passion, obviously. But I have seen so much on that side where

I remember just constantly making this comment in my head. That sounds very familiar. That's kind of what I see on the corporate side. so, and ultimately when you kind of examine the championship level teams, that's where you see a lot of what you've described earlier about those coaches, those leaders within the organization, how they understood to unlock every person's potential in a very different way.

Right? They understood there's no one size fits all. And we're to do this for everybody because that's, that may help for a few, but it's certainly not going to help for everyone. And same thing in the corporate world, right? When you're a leader and you have people reporting to you, understanding the needs, like, call them game changers because we're cool like that at concentrics, right? Or you can have a game changer where that person is very family oriented, right? They need a great schedule. They could care less about their salary.

Rob Dwyer (45:31.972)
you

Bunyamin Cankirli (45:42.554)
They want a great schedule. So you, you work with them to see how you can make that someone else who's single, likes to party on the weekend, only wants to, you know, make a lot of money. Now, you know, your avenue to motivate them, right? It's just, everyone is going to be different and everyone's, in their life at a different moment in time, that person who used to party now has two kids. Now you want to adjust how you want to motivate them, right? Years later. So it's, you have to stay close to that. You have to stay close to knowing your people, what motivates them, what doesn't, and really

unlock their potential in that way. So I do believe great sports teams, they have figured out how to do that. And that's a big part of the reason why they're successful. I think about Dennis Rodman, when I say this, you how you have to be an excellent coach, by the way, to manage a team like Phil Jackson had to, but imagine if that was a mediocre coach who didn't understand that. I don't think that team would have made it that far, especially when you need Dennis Rodman.

Rob Dwyer (46:19.086)
Mm -hmm.

Rob Dwyer (46:40.218)
Yeah.

Bunyamin Cankirli (46:40.394)
to help you win only a few players and even, even Michael Jordan and others who were leader players, they were players, but they were leaders in the team as well. Serious leaders. They understood we need to find different ways to motivate some of our players. Right now. These are maybe extreme examples, but that's why I love sports because it has these extreme examples where you can really analyze and surgically look at kind of how did this come about? And then documentaries are made. can.

even further kind of narrowed down to exactly the behaviors, the conversations. And a lot of that is true. You can apply to the corporate world. Now, if you're an employee in an organization and you want to go to Las Vegas and not to work, I don't know if I can help you there. I'm not sure if I'm going to come and pick you up from there, but my point is a lot of the fundamental pieces there, you can certainly apply. You can certainly apply and you can get the best out of it. And the most important thing is

You know, it's easy to have a cultural success in a bakery shop where there's five employees and they're immediately at reach and you can talk to them directly. And some of them probably family members, but try to do that with a hundred thousand plus, 200 ,000 plus, 200 ,000 plus employee organization. Try to do that at scale. How do you do that? Right. And that's, think, where successful organizations have figured out how do we do that? Pop and mom shop success, but at scale. And that is not easy. That requires serious leadership.

and, but that's, those are the organizations I think who, who remain, who continue to be successful versus the others who fall off the radar because they haven't understood that piece on how to bring so many people together, but still accomplish that mom and pop shop type of culture and intimacy and, and, and teamwork and that feel, right? That's, that's the challenge.

Rob Dwyer (48:35.908)
You know, I hear you saying in different words, that having great culture within your organization creates great experiences for customers.

Bunyamin Cankirli (48:48.108)
Mm

Bunyamin Cankirli (48:57.187)
Yep.

Rob Dwyer (48:57.53)
Something that's been echoed on this show many times, but I think it's worth highlighting here in that when you create an environment that employees love to be a part of, you're going to have success with customer base. And a big part of that is just understanding your employees.

can't understand your employees without as a leader being a great listener like you talked about and really wanting to understand more about them. So yeah, I love it. And Phil Jackson definitely was a listener and definitely strives to understand people that were wildly different.

Bunyamin Cankirli (49:32.514)
Yeah, I agree.

Bunyamin Cankirli (49:41.612)
Yeah. No, I mean, I, you know, I, what you said at the end there, I think it's very important because a lot of the times I do see organizations who, you know, they have great technology and they start at the technology and then look for how can we improve the customer experience? I believe it should be backwards. You start at the customer experience and then use the technology that would make sense to solve those challenges or solve those pain points. Right. And that's true for customers, but that's also true for employees because

from my experience, usually the pain points of the customers are very similar to the pain points of the employees. If something isn't working, guess what? They're gonna call back and they're not gonna be happy and the employees are gonna have to deal with that. So you'll find that it's interesting that, so when you actually solve for that, you're solving two things. You're solving pain points for customers, absolutely, but you're solving pain points for employees as well. And I think those are the things that when you can analyze and look for how do we solve this? I think that's where you get...

Rob Dwyer (50:28.28)
Mm -hmm.

Bunyamin Cankirli (50:38.498)
get quite a win. And that's why I always say, start with the experience, whether it's employee experience, customer experience, and work your way down to see how can we solve this. But I see a lot of, like I said, a lot of organizations, it's the other way. It's flashy tools, flashy, you know, especially with AI and all the other fun stuff, Gen .ai, all of this cool capabilities. And then you want to solve the problem. No, start with the customer experience, the pain points, the challenges, the...

the sentiment and then look at how do we solve this? And then you look at your capabilities, right? Like, what do we have that could make life easier for customers? But like I said, I would argue solving something for the customer typically means solving something for your employees because you make them more efficient and who doesn't like that? Right. So, so I think that's, that's a very important piece, I believe.

Rob Dwyer (51:29.616)
You and I are 100 % on the same page. What have we not talked about today that you really were just like, really want to get to one thing that I really want to talk about? Is there anything that you've just been dying to share?

Bunyamin Cankirli (51:34.306)
That's a good thing.

Bunyamin Cankirli (51:49.026)
Dying to share, not really. But I would, a last thought.

Rob Dwyer (51:52.741)
Is there anything you've had a slight twitch under a rib that you've wanted to share?

Bunyamin Cankirli (51:58.278)
Yes, I do have a lot of that. No. So I would say kind of as a last thought, some of our conversations reminded me of this kind of famous story where, you know, JFK visited the NASA facilities where I'm sure you've heard this story. A lot of people have where he would have visited and he asked Janitor, what are you guys doing? Janitor says we're helping place someone place man on the moon, right?

Rob Dwyer (52:00.121)
you

Bunyamin Cankirli (52:26.006)
And I think a lot of what we said kind of revolves around that. If you can get your entry level employees, your facilities people, your IT people who you may think have nothing to do with what we're doing, right? I'd argue absolutely they do. They are in different ways, huge part of the success or the failure depends on what happens. And that's the question. How do we get

our janitors, our people at levels that they may think they have nothing to with it, to speak the language of the vision and the mission that the organization has. Cause that doesn't happen often, but I do think that's where, that may be aspirational for huge organizations with so many employees, know, people may argue that. But I do think with the right people in place with the right leadership, right focus, I do think you can get there. And that's what makes it exciting for.

big organizations to kind of face that challenge and say, we are up for that and we are actually doing it and we are going to just continue to improve on that, right? So it kind of reminded me as a last thought I would say on that because...

That doesn't happen by luck that you have someone at that level with an organization say, I'm helping bring someone on the moon, which is, which was that mission at that time, right? Big mission. We're competing against Russia. Right. So we want it to be first basically. So, so getting people to, to kind of feel that way doesn't happen by luck. Quite a lot needs to happen for that. But I think that's a good example where, you know, of a successful organization, if you can get people to talk in that way.

at levels that you may think, well, they have nothing to do with what's happening. They're just experts and they're just doing this, but don't underestimate that. I would say that's very powerful.

Rob Dwyer (54:18.906)
I love it. I love it. That's a great place to leave it.