Kanye West’s 2007 hit, Stronger, paraphrased Friedrich Nietzsche’s maxim, “What does not kill me makes me stronger.”The idea is that the trials, tribulations, and challenges we face in life help us grow. It’s a rallying cry used by many in the face of difficult circumstances. A closer reading within context, however, opens the door to different interpretations.Regardless of how you interpret Nietzsche, most business leaders would tell you that creating stronger employees isn’t just about challenging them – it’s also about celebrating and empowering them.
Ian Storm joins the show to discuss Workforce Engagement strategies that help build high-performing contact center teams.How would he interpret this Nietzsche quote?Well, he is a long-suffering Buffalo Bills fan, so do with that as you will.
We discuss:
- The Intersection of Sports and Employee Experience
- Changing Perceptions of Contact Center Work
- The Balance of Performance and Support
- AI's Role in the Future of Work
- The Importance of Trust in Team Dynamics
- Modeling Desired Behaviors in Leadership
- Forecasting the Future:Bills vs. Chiefs in the AFC Title Game
Connect with Ian on LinkedIn
Music courtesy of Big Red Horse
Transcript
Rob Dwyer (00:04.044)
We've never had a fight breakout on next in queue, but today could be the exception because today I welcome Bill's super fan Ian Storm to the show as I troll him with my sweatshirt. Welcome to the show. How are you?
Ian Storm (00:26.465)
Despite our differences, I am very excited to be here. I have nerded out on your intros for so long and I am trying to figure out how we can make that a bet. You know, like if the bills win, do you got to circle the wagons on one of your intros at random or?
Rob Dwyer (00:40.334)
Mmm, sir, you know, no one circles the wagons like the Buffalo Bills At least that's what Chris Berman has been telling me since I was a kid. It's been a long
Ian Storm (00:46.209)
So I'm told. So I'm told.
Rob Dwyer (00:55.342)
I, you know, this is going to air at a very timely time. Does that make sense? Timely time? Yeah, I'm not. This will come out on Friday, and that very same weekend, your Buffalo Bills will be visiting by Kansas City Chiefs for the AFC Championship game again.
Ian Storm (01:05.641)
Yeah, we're not English professors. We're good.
Rob Dwyer (01:24.322)
have this match up, which is fun. lucky for us when we planned this episode, we planned it before this game was set in stone. And your team held up their end of the bargain. The referees held up our end of the bargain. At least that's what I hear. And so we'll get to meet. So that's exciting.
Ian Storm (01:51.009)
I am legit spooked. I don't think anyone realizes that your chiefs have been in cruise control. But then like in the fourth quarter, Playoff Mahomes woke up. That falling down touchdown throw to Kelsey. I was like, great, they're shaking off the rust just in time for us to come visit town.
Rob Dwyer (02:01.678)
was such a thing of beauty.
Rob Dwyer (02:08.162)
Yeah, well playoff Kelsey is also a thing and I will say Like we had to have three turnovers And a dropped two-point conversion to make this happen so I'm glad that your bills lived up to I guess they're into the bargain but man
did they ever get some help from the Ravens.
Ian Storm (02:39.069)
Hey, I think that's the beauty of sports definitely overlaps with our topic today. You know, you know, real humans, the employee experience where I, that's why they play the games, right? Like I will raise my hand and agree the bills are maybe barely a top three team in the AFC, but here we are, right? You get the right vibes, you get the right people, you get that home field advantage. You never know.
Rob Dwyer (02:48.206)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (03:01.198)
I think for the most part being a top three team in the AFC guarantees you being a top four team in the NFL.
Ian Storm (03:08.481)
shots fired to the NFC side
Rob Dwyer (03:11.726)
Look Who am I scared of the Vikings the Lions? that's right They're no longer in the playoffs like those were the best teams in the NFC. Like come on really
Ian Storm (03:23.905)
Thought for sure you were starting a Wizard of Oz thing right there. Lions and tigers.
Rob Dwyer (03:26.86)
Yeah, it's just. It's. It feels like they all decided that there was no place like home and that's where they'd like to be for the playoffs on on their couches watching. Yeah, we didn't. This is not a sports podcast. This is not a football podcast, even though we had to just open it up that way because it's it's very fresh for those. For those that are.
Ian Storm (03:36.755)
Rob Dwyer (03:56.278)
watching and or listening to this, we are recording the Monday just following this weekend. So it's very fresh for both of us and we're both very happy and looking forward to this coming weekend.
Ian Storm (04:09.537)
thought for sure I'd have to call in sick though. I thought we were this close where it's like, man, I got the case of the sore loser sniffles.
Rob Dwyer (04:13.454)
I'm glad that that didn't happen. I probably would have taken it easier on you if that was the case, but...
Ian Storm (04:25.793)
You
You'd have had some virtual tissues ready. You would have told me how.
Rob Dwyer (04:30.956)
Yes, yes, but instead. You know our people did the things our people needed to do. And you did a nice little segue for me talking about the people and I feel like so often, particularly over the course of the last couple of years that we get very focused on technology so.
Before we get there, think it makes a lot of sense, not just because this is a podcast and you're a guest and you should introduce yourself, but also to talk about where you work and what Aspect does, because I think that will help form kind of the framing around this conversation. So tell us all about you.
Ian Storm (05:23.169)
The exciting part for me, right? I just want so badly be a sports podcast, but I suppose since we're going to make it about work, they do sign my paycheck and all. So I am the director of strategic solutions at aspect and I work as sort of an overlay between channels, sales and marketing. And I think what got me ready for the role was having spent so much time in the contact center. I think that's why you and I, know, whoever's watching this.
Rob Dwyer (05:24.34)
yeah.
Ian Storm (05:52.225)
despite how we talk, this is our second time talking period. But when you've been in the trenches for contact center, you wear all the different hats, it's almost like a, do the youth say real, recognize real? There's something in the ether where you could just sort of feel it, right? Is that what the youth say?
Rob Dwyer (06:10.456)
glad that we can we can say it's is that what the kids say these days that's that's yes real recognize real and the way that I just said it is surely the way the kids say
Ian Storm (06:27.809)
I guarantee if any of my friends from back in our farm growing up days are watching this like, Ian, I'm gonna smack that hat off your head. But sorry, I can derail with the best of them as you can tell. And I work at aspect where we specialize in workforce engagement management, right? And that's why this topic about the employee experience, the human experience is so close to my heart. It's why I chose to...
work here at Aspect, you know, lot of us in the contact center, it's kind of nice. Like after you earn your stripes, you really kind of make your pick. you know, they're really big on just authentic leadership here and making some serious changes on kind of the narrative that's happening in our space. And that's why I'm here today, right? Like what's the balance between technology and humans.
Rob Dwyer (07:14.094)
Hold on Ian. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. What it? Workforce management. Yes workforce engagement or employee engagement. Yes, tell me about workforce engagement management because it sounds like you just made that up. Did you just make that up?
Ian Storm (07:33.729)
I'm pretty sure there's that made up term. Some may know it as workforce optimization. Boy, I'm trying to think of the other buzzwords, fat words, but it's so true though, where I feel like, you know, if you've been in contact center for even more than five years, you've seen all the ebbs and flows. So we're choosing to frame it as workforce engagement management because...
It's one thing to get the right butts in the right seats at the right time, right? Like you're hitting those staffing levels, making sure you're not understaffed or even overstaffed. But what are they doing once they're there? Right? Like as a coach, sure, you can make sure that the bus goes to the stadium, but then what? You know? And so that's why for us, it's a full suite of now here's what.
Rob Dwyer (08:18.69)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (08:25.1)
So you bring up a great point. And so back to kind of where I was getting us going was we.
There is this huge
idea thought process that AI is going to replace all the people, right? That is, it seems like we've been trying to replace all the people in contact centers for decades and we keep layering on new technology and yet the workforce in contact centers has only continued to grow year over year over year. And people keep telling me that's going to change. Maybe, maybe it will.
Ian Storm (08:48.853)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (09:13.422)
But there is also this particularly in the US, an image of contact center work being in some cases just awful, being a horrible job and people doing it because they have no other options. Are you telling me that
It doesn't have to be that way. Is that what you're telling?
Ian Storm (09:45.697)
Yeah, there's a crazy world out there where don't mind my product placement as I explain this.
Rob Dwyer (09:52.046)
Okay, I'm gonna switch from coffee to water my cups bigger than yours
Ian Storm (09:59.713)
You
Ian Storm (10:04.001)
It's all those Super Bowl trophies, you know, weighing down your beverage. But, yeah, like I think regardless of the type of work, what really weighs on me personally, right? Cause I was, my parents were high school graduates. Like I had just had no idea what I didn't even know where to find the white collar in the closet. I didn't know what that life looked like, right? So whether it's contact center or not,
Rob Dwyer (10:08.267)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (10:33.813)
So I'll admit it's a total made up phrase that I was on LinkedIn and Justin Robbins made a great point. I just kind of made up the hierarchy of opportunity. And that to me is where the engagement piece comes in, where you tie it into what's in it for Rob, what's in it for Rob's team, what's in it for Rob's company, right? Like it gives, it gets you close to that holistic experience where you as a leader or as an employer, you can recognize somebody for more than, hey, you showed up today, right? Like.
I mean, that's something, right? Like there's some rough contact centers were showing up, probably is more than half the job, but you know, that's not your entire workforce. You know, you got some hungry people there. They're just chomping for an opportunity.
Rob Dwyer (11:17.388)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things that I think every organization can do a better job of is celebrating their work for. We are all really good at finding the opportunities, right? The opportunities. What did you not do well yesterday or today?
Ian Storm (11:37.109)
Yup. Of course.
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (11:44.822)
Or last week or whenever it was right? You didn't. You didn't hit all of your goals. You were, you know, you're falling down on your KPIs and nobody measures a KPI like a contact center manager. Like those are always front and center in a way that is not necessarily true of other professions. Like most other professions. Look, a lot of us are worked from home, but for those of you that haven't ever worked in a contact center is not.
uncommon for you to have a big digital display, whether that's a TV or some other kind of digital board that is showing literally up to the minute metrics and team performance and agent performance. Like those things are front and center and a contact center in a way that I don't think are as visible and in your face in other jobs. And so when I, when I'm struggling,
Ian Storm (12:18.081)
Yup.
Rob Dwyer (12:43.926)
It's there is there for me to see it's in my face and it's there for everybody else to see as well. And that can be really intimidating and. Really kind of pull you down, demotivate you. Well, you're talking about is the polar opposite of that. Like how do we make sure that? Agents feel like. They're headed in the right direction.
that they're doing the right things and that that's constantly being reinforced. So can you talk about the power of just that daily celebration more than just, hey, I'm glad you didn't call in sick today?
Ian Storm (13:24.417)
Yeah. And I think you're really hit on something too. Cause my hot take for anyone that doesn't know me, I'm tech agnostic. Like honestly, any tool can get the job done. The brand of hammer to me is irrelevant. Right. And you raised the point as to why I feel that way. Right. So contact centers were obsessed with those, those KPIs. To me, it's akin to like being a leader in the contact center space. It's almost like being a personal trainer, right? Where your employees.
how you manage that feedback, those numbers, there's a big difference between we are making you healthier, look at your longevity score now, like your potential for how long you can live, your health span for what you're gonna do in those years, Versus body dysmorphia, right? Where it's, you know, you are just, you gotta be the ugliest kid at the dance. You smell funny, right? Like it's all in how you frame it. And I think, you know, something to be mindful of
Rob Dwyer (14:13.844)
Mmm.
Ian Storm (14:26.177)
So it's a delicate balance. My, my take is part of why folks are focused on KPIs at the leadership level. That's where you get promotions. That's where you get your team or resources, right? They're like, man, that Rob guy, if I could throw him another five FTEs or like whatever, whatever that thing is, right. Or even just every company answers to somebody, whether it's a board privately owned, you got to answer to somebody that balances the books.
Rob Dwyer (14:35.363)
Mm.
Ian Storm (14:53.683)
And those KPIs make for sexy metrics where it's like, boy, that age T went down. But meanwhile, like, you know, some of the smarter personal trainers within the business, they're like, Ooh, they're going to end up putting on more weight than what they started with. You know, like, you know, when you're losing water weight, are you really building muscle kind of thing? And that to me is where I feel like a lot of leaders struggle where they it's, you're just balancing so many pressures.
Rob Dwyer (14:56.641)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (15:13.218)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (15:20.331)
to not have those deeper conversations, know, that's opportunities have to battle.
Rob Dwyer (15:20.717)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (15:25.228)
Yeah, I love that as just a way for people to frame things, because certainly if you're only focused on the weight, right? What does the scale say? You're not necessarily focused on the long-term outcomes, the actual goals that you're trying to achieve. So from an agent standpoint, right, you talk about
The personal trainer, right? I might just stop showing up or stop working out because I get frustrated. That happens with agents. They just stop showing up.
Ian Storm (16:08.384)
Yeah, that's totally what it is. And then it's funny because I know you're in a position to where companies come to you with a problem and it's common for everybody, right? It's almost like if we're going to keep going with the analogy in America, we all know that we could be healthier in any number of ways. It's the same for any business where they'll come to you and they'll say, I just don't get it. We keep losing employees and you nailed it, right? Where it's like, how do you capture that culture change in a bottle?
Like how do you capture the positive vibe sort of thing? But you know, it's, it's all what's within your control, right? Like if you can only control, you know, the three people on your team, you know, control is an ugly word for leadership, right? Like, nope, we want to be servant leaders, but you get what I'm saying. Hey, build the best team of four that, you know, you'll be a beacon of deeper meaning that maybe you're the pilot for why this works, right?
Rob Dwyer (16:39.724)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (16:55.245)
Yeah.
Ian Storm (17:05.109)
versus, if you're an opportunity where you are at the tippy top of that, you know, little pyramid, great. Then you can be the change that you're looking for, you know? And it's really, I think it comes down to just like a supervisor can talk to an agent a certain way, that's the way it goes as you continue up the ladder, right? Like my boss, like part of why I stay, he'll deliver big news, big call.
Rob Dwyer (17:26.705)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (17:34.849)
We're going in this direction, right? And know, aspects been around a while. So like, it'll stir some fears where it's like, my God, that's not what we do here. You know, like change is scary for anyone. And my guy at the top, he'll stick around on the zoom call an extra 15, 30 minutes and say, tell me how you feel. And he doesn't solve it that call. mean, no one can like, like that's not the expectation, but just the act of being heard and seen. I mean,
Rob Dwyer (17:45.664)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (17:57.538)
Right.
Ian Storm (18:04.737)
I know it's not AI doing your dishes and stuff, like, it's still, it's pretty effective.
Rob Dwyer (18:12.738)
Yeah, I think we all want to feel seen. And I would say, though, if it were always immediate results and we all of a sudden were hitting all of those KPIs when we did that, everyone would do it. Everyone doesn't do it.
Ian Storm (18:36.577)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (18:41.218)
And there are reasons behind that. So let's talk about that piece of it because if I am a supervisor and I've got somebody who's underperforming, it might be faster to replace them and hope I get lucky with someone who performs quickly out of the gate. Right? I mean, that's, that is one way to boost team performance is through attrition because I might
throw a dart and get somebody, because you get that, right? You get agents who come in and they perform right out of the gate. So what do you say to someone who says, I like to get rid of the bottom 20 % of my team on a regular basis because it makes for better performance. They're not cut out for this work.
Ian Storm (19:33.441)
I'm sure there's certain lines of business where that totally makes sense, right? Like we can't know everything. And I'm sure that person's out there and I just haven't met him yet. And by the way, know, for conferences this year, if you see me near that person, I'd love to chat. Cause that's a super interesting dynamic. Since we're, you know, both wearing the part right now, for me, it's similar to sports, right? Like the best teams, the best franchises, the best organizations you work for, they will find value in folks that weren't even drafted.
and they just got scooped up, right? Because what it is, is when you, it's twofold, right? There's what you see in the person. And you know, I'll take it away from sports for a second, right? So family, relatable, I hope for most, where we are buried, and I live in Rochester, New York, we're buried in snow, and we had to shovel today, right? So I had some choices, right? Kids are out for Martin Luther King Day. How do we go about balancing that?
Rob Dwyer (20:30.734)
Mm.
Ian Storm (20:31.689)
Lot of options, right? I could lone wolf it and then I could come in pumping my chest being like, I am the alpha. I got the driveway, right? Which like cool for me as a man that should be beyond that, you know, but like it always, it's always a little nice to get a little juice, but there's option one. It's technically an option. Not what I did, right? I went with another option, which was like, all right, bring my kids out there with me. But then the nuance there is, cause it's, it's freezing cold.
It's manual labor, it's hard work. So how do you go about framing that? My daughter, bless her soul, talented so many things as a result of that paralysis analysis, slow as molasses. She would freeze into a snowman if I had her doing the hardcore heavy shoveling. So what'd do? She was brushing off the cars that were buried in snow. She has this fine attention to detail that my eight-year-old son,
Rob Dwyer (21:17.1)
Ha ha ha.
Rob Dwyer (21:26.806)
Hmm
Ian Storm (21:28.563)
my God, he would break the windshield wipers off. He'd slash the tires. mean, he comes by it. Honestly, my family calls me BamBam because I break a lot of stuff by accident. That's my boy. Right. So my advice to folks in a position of leadership is, I mean, talk to the person, right? They could even give you feedback on where it's going wrong. Cause you know, as you, you're, you're paying more in the long run to keep taking that 20 % scoop. Right. Like it's a.
Rob Dwyer (21:56.173)
Hmm.
Ian Storm (21:58.049)
Oh boy, I'm so bad at remembering quotes. think it's, you might have to, is there, is there a fact check portion of the show? Sweet, I can make up anything. All right. So the bills of 110 Super Bowls and this quote from, all right, all right. Well, it's that I would decide, but this quote that I love is, uh, I believe it's Desmond Tutu.
Rob Dwyer (22:04.918)
I was told there would be no fact checking.
Rob Dwyer (22:14.35)
I can't let that one go. It's not true. It's not true.
Ian Storm (22:26.613)
He said, how many bodies are we going to pull out of the river until we go upstream to see why they're falling in? Right? Like if this is your tribe, if this is your community, like, mean, good on you. Like it's to me, it's almost like Thanos, like logic. That's why I'd love for someone to come to me and say, this is why it's impossible. Cause I'm sure it exists. But as an outsider to that world, that's kind of my take where it's like, yeah, I mean, you could snap your fingers and disappear half the earth, but then
You just lost half of your humanity. Like at what cost? You know, he would tell you everything and I don't think you should pay everything. Just don't do it.
Rob Dwyer (23:07.168)
I that happens because we often don't look at our workplaces as our community, as our tribe, that they are merely workplaces. What do you think about that?
Ian Storm (23:24.577)
That's a great point. Yeah, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen it, right? Have you ever come across those LinkedIn posts where they're like, if one more person calls me family one more time.
Rob Dwyer (23:39.17)
Yes, I have seen these posts. And I think that is an interesting dynamic to explore because
Look, I work at a relatively small company, a core group of people that I have gotten to know and have very tight relationships with. At the same time, it is a business, right? And so there are times when business decisions have to be made. And I don't think we figured out exactly how.
to categorize that because it's not the same as family. Like family, family I will risk everything for.
Ian Storm (24:28.235)
Right.
Rob Dwyer (24:29.88)
Business, I won't risk everything probably for that, but in a really good environment, a really good company culture, it can feel a lot like family. It can feel like I work with my best friends. It can absolutely be that. It can be I look forward to work because...
Ian Storm (24:50.379)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (24:56.014)
I really like working with and for the people that I work with. But I do think there is that delicate balance where, I mean, it's not your family. And there should be a line there. But the question is, does it become so like ones and zeros that you have no feeling at all for the people that you work with?
Ian Storm (25:24.266)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (25:24.812)
We can be in the middle somewhere. We don't have to be on either this side or this side, right?
Ian Storm (25:32.897)
You framed that so perfectly. It's almost like if I were to reframe it back, there hasn't been great branding. like we throw out the term family because it's just, it's quick and easy, right? But you're right. Family, everything's on the table, you know? And I'm sure you, you know, family is also your most favorite guests that come on the show. Like that definitely falls in the group too. But uh.
Rob Dwyer (25:38.74)
Mm.
Rob Dwyer (25:45.004)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (25:57.505)
Yeah, I think if I may go way back to justify the student loans I'm still paying on a psychology degree I don't use. Sit with me a second here. The word is relatedness. Meaning you feel like you're a part of something bigger than yourself and you're included. You can do that without being a blind cult follower where it's like, all right, if I need to die to serve, that's what I do, right?
Rob Dwyer (26:10.677)
Mmm
Rob Dwyer (26:26.049)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (26:27.317)
But like, you know, for like contact center, like, yeah, that'd be kind of a weird vibe to have, but what are those low touches to make people feel involved? Like for us at Aspect, we have a Slack channel where I screwed off with the CEO for like an hour talking about AI and all the cool stuff he's doing with his journal and stuff when he uploads the documents. And we were playing around with it. There was a couple of us employees where we like, cause basically he trained the model to be similar to himself.
and that's what he's working on for fun. He's like, yeah, ask virtual me anything, right? Or we have Slack channels where it's a, you know, this was a new hire, right? You talk about those people that you take a chance on that maybe don't quite fit what you're looking for. She came from the customer side. She brought all these fun games that are like, you know, wordle-esque, like same flavor, right? You do it once a day. It's fun. You share your score, but it's all those little touches where all of sudden, before you know it,
Rob Dwyer (26:57.442)
Mm.
Ian Storm (27:26.645)
going back to the personal health thing, 10,000 steps a day. There's no Rocky Balboa training montage for that. But I bet if we all did it every dang day, you'd look back after a month and be like, my God, I'm actually going further. I'm not sweating as much. I don't hurt, right? But it's like, it's hard to bring that awareness. And I think that's where the engagement piece from a technology standpoint really comes, where it's that gentle.
Rob Dwyer (27:34.456)
Mm.
Rob Dwyer (27:42.498)
Right.
Ian Storm (27:53.533)
of awareness, but you're still having the human do it. Like what bothers me about the AI thing is we're picturing robots replacing humans. And to me, the analogy is, as a Marvel dork, it's Tony Stark stepping into the armor. You have this machine, this AI that's making you aware of the conditions around you, but it's empowering you to work on your instincts faster.
Rob Dwyer (28:20.706)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (28:20.745)
really just clear the air to reduce the cognitive load of that's weird why is there a hole opening where aliens come out right?
Rob Dwyer (28:27.822)
That is weird.
Rob Dwyer (28:37.486)
So I love this idea. At the same time, I will say I just wrapped up an amazing episode with John Walter and we talked about AI proxies. And I wonder if we shouldn't be at this point more concerned about how our agents, our human agents are interacting with
AI impersonations of customers rather than worrying about how we replace these people with AI because there are consumers who are already saying, I don't want to deal with that. I'll let this service deal with it often in the case of cancellations, but it's not limited to that. And we actually talked about on that episode and I watched this video of a guy who
Ian Storm (29:23.841)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (29:35.31)
had his AI software shop for homeowners insurance for his rental property with 11 different insurance companies and he played the call of his AI interacting with this actual agent. You can tell it sometimes I feel like I felt this poor agent like.
There were moments where I'm sure she was like, this is ridiculous. I can't believe I'm talking to this machine.
Are we too focused on the.
We too focused on AI in the wrong place.
Ian Storm (30:15.969)
I love that. I'd started the episode and I heard the cool intro. I didn't get to listen to the whole thing because this is something we nerd out about all the time too. Like Cam Smith, he's the chief innovation officer for just all of our parent company. But he always posited that the real wrinkle is going to be when the consumer can do it back.
because it is a very interesting use case. Like if you're lying to business, maybe they don't necessarily verify with a social or maybe the AI can be programmed to give a social. Like the norms of how you confirm an identity and work with that person. They're there with recruiting too. My girlfriend's a recruiter and with doing a lot of remote hiring, shoot.
Proxies, stand-ins, AI, it's all on the table and it's all super interesting, right? Like it's definitely, you gotta have that, the human in the loop, right? I mean, you can't, that's why you gotta have that person in the loop to kind of raise their hand and say, this doesn't smell right kind of thing, you know?
Rob Dwyer (31:21.078)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (31:26.924)
Yeah. Yeah, it to me it seems like we have to be very cognizant of. Not getting to a point where it is strictly have your AI talk to my AI and they'll they'll work it out like. That's some Terminator stuff right there like that. That's how we really truly get the rise in the machines. The AIs are having a conversation with each other and they go hey.
about these humans.
Ian Storm (31:57.651)
Right.
Rob Dwyer (31:59.19)
Wouldn't it be easier if we just got rid of them? Like that's the part that I think we all have been warned about through entertainment, through fiction, but with very real consequences in that it feels like sometimes we forget that we still need humans looking at this stuff if for no other reason than self preservation.
Ian Storm (32:29.063)
It's so true. And the most I can think of would be like, I just feel better and you know, maybe my kids will feel different because they're raised in it. So to your example, as long as there's a human that can confirm and sign off on something on both sides, know, like, yeah, like you just, you gotta have that person in the loop somehow. But like, maybe it is, I watched too many sci-fi movies, know, dystopian future, utopian future, fine line.
It's definitely interesting stuff, but yeah, yeah, it's definitely.
Rob Dwyer (32:58.294)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (33:06.059)
Did you notice this with AI actually, I'm gonna go in the weeds a little bit here. The people that worked closer to AI, they weren't really that shocked or impressed with chat GPT, whereas the folks that had no relation to technology probably felt like what you were describing where it's like, all right, where's Arnold Schwarzenegger, we're in trouble, right?
Rob Dwyer (33:26.446)
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think part of that is. Good branding. So let's let's be real if open AI was good at anything aside from just developing. Incredibly interesting tools it was. We branded well and we just kind of opened it up and said everybody go go play go figure out what you can do with this right? And so there was this.
Mad and I'm guilty of it. Like did I post some post in the style of Dr. Seuss on LinkedIn? Yes, 100%. I did that. I think it's old enough that it's probably gone and you can't find it so nobody can prove anything. But right. I mean it was fun to play with. It had this novel ability to do things that were. It would have taken a lot of creative effort and time.
and just spit it out like that. And I think that was the genius of open AI encouraging adoption was like, let's just give it to everybody and see what they do with it.
Ian Storm (34:38.731)
Yup.
Rob Dwyer (34:41.134)
And I think because most, the average person has not been exposed to machine learning models. They have not gone through robotic process automation. They certainly have not spent any time, um, working on. Jen AI and what came out of that. And so, yeah, it felt a little bit like.
Magic that something could just do this and talk back to you in a way that felt more human than What a typical chatbot would have spat out three years ago because that's kind of where I think the average person was was This chatbot doesn't understand my question
Ian Storm (35:30.763)
Yeah
that's totally the framework, right? Like what you described isn't terribly different than when like for years we've used PowerPoint. It says, how about this design idea, right? Like it's not terribly different, but you're right. It came off in a more personalized human way where all of sudden it's like, whoa. But meanwhile, for like anyone who's technical, you know, like expert systems is that's technically AI that's rules-based if then.
Like, you know, at the core of all these things, it's just a very complicated branch of if-then logic, right? Like if you crushed it at SATs, congratulations, you're like halfway to being like a really good developer. Like that's basically the name of the game you're doing, right? If this than that, then this than that, you know?
Rob Dwyer (36:22.274)
Yeah, it's, I think it just, and in particular, I don't think it was Chad GPT that really caught the imagination. I think it was Dolly that caught the imagination. It was the image generation piece. And I think that's because,
That seems so chant like yeah, OK, I had all kinds of weird flaws and still like. Most of that stuff struggles with fingers for some reason like. Do this and all of sudden I got six fingers and one of them is all mangled like. AI struggles with fingers. And AI struggles with words represented in an image. And there are you know there are other kind of.
Hell-Tale signs, but then we start seeing AI generated imagery and people could play around and there was a relatively famous case of the one guy who won an art contest and has been trying to To get Licensing on his or copyright protection on his image in the copyright office is like no you can't because
A human didn't make that, AI made that, right? So there's this fight going back and forth. And I think that's really the piece that people went.
That's awesome. I can do these cool things with AI that no one ever played around with a chat bot and was like, look at the great picture. This chat bot drew for me.
Ian Storm (38:07.681)
Right? And you kind of raise a great point, with, so my background for a lot of my consulting or speech analytics, all sorts of stuff, department of education, IRS, treasury, know, state of Georgia voter registration system, like you name it, the most random stuff. It's the way in which we can regulate that becomes very interesting. Right. And that's where.
Rob Dwyer (38:33.313)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (38:35.551)
you know, fourth quarter, Bill's Ravens and my girlfriend got tick tock back. She's very happy. And that's what kind of like, what comes to mind for me, like when you're like developing software solutions, like everybody, most people know like on our side where it's like Canada, Europe, like they have some real regulations about where you store the data, what you do with it, all these things. And that's kind of where I come from with like a lot of these more technical talks or decisions where it's like.
You know, it just feels like we're scooping people out of the river again, like until you can go upstream and actually like regulate it. Like, all right, ban TikTok, but like, have you actually done anything? Like no matter which side of the fence you stand on, if you thought your data was safe just because of that one ban, well, here in for a bad time, you know?
Rob Dwyer (39:27.116)
Yeah, absolutely. I am totally on board with you. The ban itself seems a bit nonsensical because, first of all, the first thing that a bunch of people did was flee to another Chinese-owned app. You're not solving the problem. You're just migrating the problem to somewhere else that you're going to have to consider.
Number two, the influence that I think people are concerned about this is probably way more politics than anyone wants to get into, but it is pertinent to how we talk about data and people that influences available on all kinds of social media channels that is not limited to tick tock, right? Certainly if you're worried about Chinese influence over American perceptions of
Ian Storm (40:18.549)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (40:26.27)
anything that can happen on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter as easily as it can happen on TikTok. All of this can still happen, particularly if the content moderation of these is now being crowdsourced. And quite honestly, there's a
Ian Storm (40:41.365)
Right?
Rob Dwyer (40:56.042)
Question about how feasible it is to moderate content with humans Given how much content is being produced like I have this podcast We are in the fourth season. I say we I mean me and all the cool people like Ian who show up to talk and I am one of Probably hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are produced and the
content the volume of content is impossible for us to all actually listen to or watch or consume in any form and So there's a question about how do you how do you moderate? When so much content is being produced every single minute of every single day from all corners of the globe like it's pretty crazy
Ian Storm (41:49.727)
It really is. And I feel like whether it's personal, professional, it's that fear of control or the loss thereof rather, where that's when the problem comes into play, right? Like, what was the fear with sick talk? We can't really moderate what they're doing on there. What's the fear of like tossing the keys to your employees where they develop the culture? boy, they really shouldn't have posted that or said that out loud, which like.
You know, I'll say it out loud. It's kind of entertaining. That happens on our Slack. Yeah, there's definitely, you know, it's funny that they know the soft culture. It's so easy. It's soft. like, it? Do you know how easy it is for like, you know, like I, it's hard to explain what we do to our family, right? And the challenge I've posed to them when it comes to this soft culture that I'm struggling with.
Rob Dwyer (42:21.198)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (42:44.937)
Like me personally, right? Like I don't even know how relatable it is, but we'll show you here. We'll find out. Right. So it's how do you go from like, so my dad, he worked his way up in a factory, like straight out of high school, worked there his whole life. And, know, went up the rungs, you know, like, whereas I was contact center, like that's my way of copying him. Right. Like he was legit manufacturing. Whereas for me in a contact center felt like a similar vibe. Right.
Rob Dwyer (43:14.018)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (43:14.113)
the machines have to run, so on and so forth. But main point is he got to disconnect, meaning he had a work persona that was gruff and he could choose to distance people, right? Like hard culture, because it was hard where like they didn't have flexibility for him, right? Like it's manufacturing, had to do what you gotta do. What's tricky for a leader who works remote, you know, there's...
Rob Dwyer (43:24.75)
you
Ian Storm (43:40.545)
If things go wrong, you're expected to show up. And if you're in a soft culture, like, yeah, that's the real Ian showing up for you 24 seven flaws and all. And then when I sign off for the day, that same guy's got to go upstairs from this lovely basement and be like, all right, let's be emotionally regulated and be ready for some tough conversations with the family, you know, for, oh, I need to shower. didn't do the homework. Like that to me is like the really interesting.
Rob Dwyer (44:03.63)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (44:09.995)
that we all need to solve, right? Where it's, we need to be more authentic in our work, but then it's a whole new muscle to figure out what that means to give up control, to surrender these sorts of things, right? And I get it. There's a lot of lines of business where you can't really go all the way on that, but I still think there's a way to give a human touch and through the technology too, right? Like to me, technology should raise the alarm for a human to go look.
Rob Dwyer (44:24.654)
Yeah.
Ian Storm (44:37.855)
You know, it's been that way for a long time. And I think that's just, we're speeding up those alerts and we're getting more efficient and detailed and accurate with those alerts. Like that to me is where technology and humans meet, right? It's how can I share information with Rob without giving him cognitive overload where he's like, I don't know, he just sent me a hundred lines of an error log. Like not much I can do with that, right? But it's different if I can show Rob where it's like, Hey, this specific widget isn't executing.
Rob Dwyer (45:00.078)
Yeah.
Ian Storm (45:07.935)
You
Rob Dwyer (45:08.962)
Yeah. You you said something that made me think about.
part of the solution. And that part is, it begins with hiring and it begins with hiring people that you feel like are a good culture fit that will represent your brand well, that care. Because I can feel more comfortable in giving up
some of that control when there's trust.
And I think we ask of employees to trust the company. But we don't as willingly reciprocate and offer that trust to our employees. And I would imagine if we could run an experiment that if the company as a whole operates with a high level of reciprocal trust,
That it's much easier to not only allow that release of control, but you probably you get almost no damage from that. You probably don't have to do damage control very often because employees are operating understanding I'm representing my company in this particular situation. And so I probably
Rob Dwyer (46:45.762)
You know need to represent well, but also like the general thought process is probably different if I've hired the right people that. Want to be. Kind and open minded and whatever characteristics that represent your brand and. If you only hire based off of skills.
Ian Storm (47:08.412)
Mm-hmm.
Rob Dwyer (47:10.466)
then that character piece, you kind of have to be a little bit more reserved or less willing to release control because I don't know. I know what skills you bring to the table. And maybe that's part of a challenge when it comes to just even resumes, right? When we're looking for a job, what do we put on our resume? We put our skills on our accomplishments. We don't put our values.
Ian Storm (47:23.595)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (47:38.145)
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's actually, oh man, I love this topic so much. Like we're probably going to go two hours long. Bless your heart for figuring out the clips. Like seriously all day. I don't know if it's the sports background, but like I it's fascinating to me. It's fascinating to me how some an organization, a team, a group of people could be so disadvantaged in a million ways. But if they have that trust.
All of sudden they have the upper hand and they're just kicking your ass up and down, right? And I think where that comes, boy, where'd it, I wish I had the stats in front of me, but Google, it was like Project Oxygen or something, but they verified what you found, right? Where like, if you had different graphs and different lines going different directions, yes, it is expensive upfront to trust people, to work through things.
Rob Dwyer (48:11.222)
Yeah, yeah.
Ian Storm (48:35.733)
You know, it's the whole storm, norm, perform thing. But in the long run, you're looking to keep employees. And here's the thought. You want those employees to innovate, right? You're not going to do that for a company that you see as a one-way trust, right? But meanwhile, like great example, I didn't even tell you this, technically aspects closed today, right? But when you identify with the work you do,
Rob Dwyer (48:38.158)
Hmm.
Ian Storm (49:04.511)
and it's a personal passion, you just don't really look at the clock. you know, I used to roll, younger me would roll my eyes at this so hard, but like, you know, the more you actually care about people, and it is two-way trust, you're like, I don't know, it just feels good to do this stuff, right? Like all of sudden that compass changes in a big, meaningful way. Like it's fascinating to me.
Rob Dwyer (49:29.134)
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of hard lifting for brands to figure out how they make that change, if they need to make that change, if they're not already there. It also becomes a challenge of scale. So as I start to grow into a larger company, if my company has four people,
Ian Storm (49:46.357)
Yes!
Rob Dwyer (49:54.766)
Probably a lot easier to have that kind of open relationship if you will that relationship of trust then if I'm a company of four thousand people because Like I don't know all four thousand people and I think that's also related to just how we are as humans You know, we are tribal by nature
Ian Storm (50:00.651)
for sure.
Ian Storm (50:18.944)
Right?
Rob Dwyer (50:19.486)
And once we get to a certain scale where I don't know people, need certain cues to help me develop trust that is not inherent. And that can be really hard to do when you get a really large organization and figuring out ways to gender that trust at a structural level. Like I don't think most companies are very good at.
Ian Storm (50:42.069)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (50:46.049)
Oh, for sure. And I have a really atypical recommendation, right? It's like most folks, they'd be like, Oh, you know, let's, let's gamify it. Let's engage it. And like, you know, my company included. Yeah, we sell that stuff, like get it. But I think to simplify it even more, whether it's a vendor or a consultant, if you partner with the right kind of people, right? Where it's like, you know, like I know when like Rob, if I bring Rob into the building, so to speak,
There's one more way I can try to permeate that vibe. like you can lean on most vendors, you know, the lights don't stay on without business. So they will bend over backwards to do anything. Like the thing I found most interesting, like when you compare consumer behaviors to personal consumer buying behaviors to professional buying behaviors, right? You buy stuff for yourself personally all day, every day. You don't really do that a lot as a leader.
Knowing what I know now, why did I not go to my vendor and say, you write the requirements, you tell me how you satisfy it, you compare me to the competition. Who is your competition? Like, you know, we're talking about, you know, the advent of AI and information revolution and these things. It's like, there's the human touch again. If I just raised my hand and said, you do it, all of a sudden they're lifting the load. So in terms of culture,
Let them project manage your team, right? Let them hold your team accountable on these weekly recommendations. Let them assign people out to it, right? And then, you know, kind of helps build that identity where this vendor came in and they're just nine times out of 10, they're echoing back what you already said, right? They're like, all right, Ian, you strike me as that guy doing this. Do I have that right? And like all those little, it's so fascinating because I've done the consulting thing.
By time you get to the end of, let's say, even an eight week project, they inherit and understand the vibe, the process, the cycle. Where I had government employees who didn't know anything about technology, I would hire them in a blank and have them run my team for me. Because that's what it goes with coaching, performance, real human touch feedback, where if you model it,
Rob Dwyer (53:03.436)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (53:08.321)
all of sudden you're that change that you were looking for the whole time. So like, if I were a big organization, that's how I would look to do it, right? Where it's like, I get it. Maybe you can't do it internally, but how do you just make that, you know, have the vendor go talk to your agents, right? If you want like a neutral party, all right, let them do it. It feels very, I guess I'm not willing to let people off the hook is kind of my long story long there. You know, like, ah, now you can still try, dang it.
Rob Dwyer (53:23.33)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (53:34.338)
I love it. And you said something that I want to dig into and that is model the behavior, right? So if I am in leadership of an organization of X number of people, it really doesn't matter what the number is. But how do I go about modeling the culture and the behavior that I want to see? Because if I don't do that, I'm not getting it.
Don't care what tech you bring in. I am NOT getting it I don't care how many vendors you invite like I am NOT going to get what I want I have to and and it very much is a top-down in my mind a top-down requirement like it's gonna start at the very top but if I if I start that at the top and and I Hold people accountable to that
Ian Storm (54:11.137)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (54:22.136)
yeah.
Rob Dwyer (54:33.524)
I create that culture, then I can replicate that. Is it more challenging at scale? Yeah, probably it's a little bit more challenging, but it doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means it's more challenging. Everything's more challenging at scale, right?
Ian Storm (54:51.873)
course, you know, it's a, you know, keep going back to the health thing, probably since January, it's top of mind for me and everybody else. But like that first five to 10 pounds, you probably fix it real easy. But then as you scale on the scale, you're like, that's, right. So like in terms of like an emotionally intelligent, like workplace, it's like, that's weird.
Rob Dwyer (55:10.073)
It's really easy to plateau.
Ian Storm (55:19.721)
I said, Rob, you don't seem as happy today. What's going on? And he answered and was interested, right? Like there's your early win where it's like, huh.
Rob Dwyer (55:27.15)
Yeah, I stepped on the scale this morning, Ian, and it did not give me the number that I really wanted, and that's why I don't feel as
Ian Storm (55:37.631)
Yep. Yep. And that's where that top-down culture you're talking about, right?
As the leader, you got to be willing to say, listen, I know you're in love with that number on the scale, but look how much stronger you are. Look how much further you can last. Look at the new skill you, like it's all that little reframe stuff where that ain't a technology thing. mean, that could be, that could be a one note shared notepad where you're just passing notes and feedback where it's just, Hey, I see you. That's it. You know, it's.
Rob Dwyer (56:12.27)
Yeah.
Ian Storm (56:14.871)
It's really just that simple.
Rob Dwyer (56:16.694)
I love that I love that OK so we are going to wrap up. We're not going to two hours. No one wants to listen to us for two hours, but. I would be remiss. If we didn't just. Get some some forecasting. Out there. so let's let me get a forecast from you. This weekend.
Ian Storm (56:35.745)
Hi.
Rob Dwyer (56:45.844)
AFC Championship game. Bills at cheats. You got a prediction?
Ian Storm (56:58.185)
You know, it depends on the day. I'll give you the two sides. I'll give you a lock in my commitment here, right?
Rob Dwyer (57:02.35)
Look at this guy he is straddling this fence so hard That he's gonna walk funny all week long But you go ahead you do you Ian?
Ian Storm (57:20.459)
So if I may back my fandom and my message here, you know, coming on here today or even just professionally, I believe in the vibe, the culture, and I just feel like the Bills caught lightning in a bottle. They're that classic, nobody believes in us team. I'm sure they're going to pull out some kind of miracle because like to, you know, how you kicked off the podcast. It is a miracle that the weather played out in their favor to cause these drops, fumbles, turnovers. It's funny how the ball bounced.
the point I wanted to kind of beat myself up on. The Chiefs are 3-0 against the Bills, and I don't know if you know this, but the Bills have a history with doing things four times in a row. So I'm little scared, you know, I'm a little stitious. I'm extremely stitious. That's my hesitation, but I don't know. There's just something, something in the water, man. It's weird.
Rob Dwyer (58:03.746)
That they do.
Ian Storm (58:19.349)
There's nothing academic about it. What about your forecast,
Rob Dwyer (58:22.7)
I mean. Well, I don't think we're going to see another wide right. That out there. I don't think that is on the table, but. Like my guy Nick Wright says.
Ian Storm (58:28.459)
you
Rob Dwyer (58:41.614)
Still you come in and prove it, like, my homes and the Chiefs are kings of the mountain. This is a home game for the Chiefs, and I think as much as people want to bag on the Chiefs for not scoring a lot of points, refs bailing them out, all the narratives that go along with Chiefs wins.
The Chiefs when they started their starters had one loss in a way game in the snow at the Bills and it was a decisive loss. Let's let's be real about that. The Bills absolutely outplayed the Chiefs in that game.
Beating the Chiefs twice in the same season is a very tall task. I believe it's happened twice in the Mahomes era. think Cincinnati did it, and somebody else. It's not terribly important to know who it was, but it doesn't happen very often. It's rare.
Ian Storm (59:40.863)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Storm (59:45.023)
That's it, just twice.
Ian Storm (59:57.684)
It's rare.
Rob Dwyer (01:00:03.79)
Chiefs have been here. They've done this. They've been doing it for a long time. So I think experience and just the confidence, that trust that they have in each other to get it done is, yep, is going to come out on top, but I expect a low-ish scoring game. So I'm gonna go 21, 24.
Ian Storm (01:00:16.518)
using my words against me for shame.
Ian Storm (01:00:26.037)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (01:00:32.632)
favor of the Chiefs at Arrowhead. And then we'll see maybe the commanders in the Super Bowl.
Ian Storm (01:00:43.649)
that'd be spicy little commanders. And I think it's daring for you to forecast the low scoring game too, but you know, if it's any idea what the weather looks like out your way there.
Rob Dwyer (01:00:54.926)
I mean, cold. We're getting a little light dusting of snow here in South Central Kansas. What does Kansas City look like? Similar, probably, but I don't think we've got any significant snow in the forecast, so I think it's just gonna be.
Ian Storm (01:01:11.903)
And it does feel a little bit like karma punishment where Ravens dominated the Bills in the regular season. Things turned. Feels like the Bills could be in for another heartbreaker, but that's all right. Stand by my guys. We'll be ready.
Rob Dwyer (01:01:25.728)
I mean, look, if anyone's got experience with heartbreak, it's Bill's fans. That's just that is your being. So it seems like giving you anything less than that is like taking away your identity.
Ian Storm (01:01:41.089)
At this point, you're right. It is identity, you know, we could what I did last round with a friend of mine I was Ravens fan. So he has to door dash me some Buffalo chicken wings So, I mean we could do a similar but where you know, maybe I got a door dash you some fine Kansas barbecue or I Don't know we should we should put You know a forecast is only as good as the confidence behind it. I feel like we got to do that
Rob Dwyer (01:01:44.323)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (01:01:52.916)
Mmm. Mmm.
Rob Dwyer (01:02:01.259)
Hmm.
Rob Dwyer (01:02:08.078)
Okay, I think we should absolutely do that. I'm good with that. With that, we could do maybe gift certificates. I don't know if DoorDash is gonna come out to my location. I don't live in the city any longer these days and I would feel bad for having someone DoorDash all the way out here. But we could definitely, I'm good for a meal.
Ian Storm (01:02:21.415)
right.
Ian Storm (01:02:36.865)
All right.
Rob Dwyer (01:02:38.497)
And I am good with this wager. So wager set, we're going to, we're going to, one of us is going to be providing a meal.
Ian Storm (01:02:49.803)
Virtual handshake.
Rob Dwyer (01:02:53.464)
Just remember.
Ian Storm (01:02:57.121)
Too soon. Too soon.
Rob Dwyer (01:02:57.506)
Believe baby believe yeah, it's gonna be too soon for the next three decades. Ian connect with him on LinkedIn. You guys know the drill. Go down, find the link to his LinkedIn and give him a shout. Tell him you saw him on next in queue and. After the bills lose, you can go ahead and you know just pile on.
Ian Storm (01:03:09.365)
Yes please.
Rob Dwyer (01:03:25.324)
The Bills fans are used to it. And if the Bills somehow don't lose, then you know, come at me. Let me have it. I am. I'm ready for it. And thanks so much for being on next in queue today.
Ian Storm (01:03:41.013)
Thanks so much for having me. Huge fan of the work you're doing. Please continue. fan.