Perhaps the most challenging part of being a founder of a company is dealing with growth. Anne Hathaway’s character, Jules, in the 2015 film, The Intern, grapples with the consequences of her company’s growth and the struggle to let go of certain aspects of the business.
Finding the right fit for any job is a challenge – one we’ve recently explored on this show. But finding the right fit for leadership roles in a small, but growing company presents even more challenges. While Corey Harlock may not have Bobby DeNiro on speed dial to step in as your new CEO, he is absolutely prepared to help you find the right fit for your company’s needs.
We discuss:
- Common Hiring Mistakes and Their Impact
- Understanding Fractional Roles
- When to Hire at the Executive Level
- Navigating Leadership Changes
- Understanding Organizational Structure
- Assessing Company Culture
- Streamlining the Hiring Process
Connect with Corey on LinkedIn
Music courtesy of Big Red Horse
Transcript
Rob Dwyer (00:02.126)
Hey, welcome back to another episode of Next in Queue. Today, we've got Corey Harlock, Next in Queue. How are you, Corey? Yeah, joining all the way via Houston, but really also, if people listen to your accent, they will go, I don't know about Texas and that guy. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Corey.
Corey (00:10.311)
I'm doing great, thanks.
Corey (00:26.619)
Yeah, originally Canadian. Always my go-to joke is I will be speaking Canadian throughout the conversation. My wife and I moved down to Houston from Calgary, Alberta 10 years ago. It was 10 years ago on September 22nd, I think. And so we're in our 11th year down here in Houston, Texas.
Rob Dwyer (00:33.71)
You
Rob Dwyer (00:49.038)
think that officially allows you to claim being a Texan at this point. You've got a good decade in.
Corey (00:55.636)
There's very few people from Houston. It's a melting pot. It's an amazing city. We love it here.
Rob Dwyer (01:02.914)
Yeah. Well, today we want to talk about insourcing. I think people who have listened to this show know that we've talked about outsourcing, particularly as it relates to customer service and customer support many times. We've talked about staffing. But you run a company called Key Hire Solutions, and your focus is on bringing in talent.
in-house and so that's really what we want to talk about today and I'd like to start with Let's just start with what are some mistakes that companies make when it comes to finding Talent particularly not frontline talent, right? We're talking about managerial potentially up to C-suite talent What are some of the mistakes when they go out it alone and they're looking for talent that you've you've run across?
Corey (01:59.783)
Sure, so the DIY hiring mistakes, really there's three big ones. Number one is not clearly defining what you're looking for. It's thinking, I think I know what I need, I'm gonna go after this. And not having a full understanding of the way we break it down into three categories. Not having a full understanding of the skill set you're looking for, the experience.
not understanding how to match people in with your culture, especially if you're a small business. If you have 20 people and you bring one in, that's 5%. That person can have an impact, positive or negative. And then the second mistake they make is hiring for today's needs, not future needs. And then that's the third piece that we look at is something we call capacity.
And number three is not having a consistent or having an ad hoc hiring process. That's Canadian. No, process is Canadian, process is American. And what I mean by that is making it up on the fly and not putting things in place to add a level of consistency and efficiency. So when you look at those three things, think, think I know what I need.
then you find someone who is good for today and not tomorrow, then you throw together an ad hoc hiring process. The way we talk about things always is you always want to maximize the probability of getting it right. And there are a number of steps you can take along the way to maximize those probabilities. But when you make the three mistakes I just listed, what you're really doing is maximizing the probability of make
of hiring someone who either isn't a fit or is gonna be a good fit until your business grows a little bit, then they're out of their depth and you're wondering what happened and why they're not delivering anymore.
Rob Dwyer (04:08.686)
love that you just talked about hiring someone as a calculated risk because you can go through all the right things and someone's still not work out. And that can at times make you think, well, I don't need to go through this process because it didn't work out this time. But what you just explained is going through these different exercises, for instance, establishing a process.
is about maximizing the probability of success, not about guaranteeing success because that's never guaranteed.
Corey (04:45.624)
We're human beings. You can't guarantee human behavior. You can't guarantee circumstances and we all go through it. We've all had points in our life and career where we weren't as good as we could have been because we had other stuff going on. And so shit happens. And we can't plan for that. We're never going to bat a thousand when it comes to hiring, but we want to maximize our batting average.
And on average, business owners bat what a good professional baseball player bats, about 300, one in three. That's kind of the standard or the statistics that back that up. So think about this. And this is how I kind of talk to business owners all the time. If you have...
say an above average performer, someone who's really good in your company and they come to you and say, I'm resigning, a company contacted me and they offered me $10,000 more to go join them. And you say, fine, go. I want you to think about what you're doing.
So if they're in the top third of performers, the reality is you're probably gonna have to hire three people over the next 12, 18, 24 months to find a person that's a match. So how much lost productivity, if they're in sales, whatever, the business is gonna suffer because of that. You, Mr. or Mrs. business owner are gonna have to work more, longer, harder to make up for that lost productivity. Now, let's look at some odds.
they're a high performer, they're in the top third of your performers, the probability that you're gonna hire someone who's as strong as them and can come in and have an immediate impact is one in three. So you're gonna have to hire three people and your chances every time are one in three. Now I'm not a statistician, but what I know is that's like one in nine. It's just over 10 % of getting it right and having someone meet.
Corey (06:58.427)
the standard that the old person had if we're not upgrading, if it was a high performer. And you're probably gonna end up paying that person as much as the person who left or the same wage that you could have matched to keep the person. then, so what that turns into a situation which we call rehire your own employees. Rather than going into the market and gambling,
I just came back from Vegas, so I'm all hot on gambling. rather than rolling the dice and gambling on the great unknown, if you have a known quantity in your business and they are a top performer, rehire them. Sit them down and say, look at.
Rob Dwyer (07:41.891)
and
Corey (07:44.995)
We know if people are getting calls, it's not a mystery. There's no question. Are your employees getting contacted by other companies and offered jobs on a weekly basis? Yes. Especially if they're really good. So if they're still there, that means they're loyal because they've had opportunities to lead. And so sit them down and say something like, I know you've been getting a lot of calls over the last six, 12 months to lead.
and I appreciate your loyalty. And so what I want to do is make sure I can keep that loyalty and keep you on this team. So I want to know what it's going to take. What are you hearing on the market and what do we need to do to level up to make sure you're just going to stay for another two years? And it could be, want a $10,000 raise. You're going to have to look at that and say, okay, can I do that? It might be, I want another week PTO. Easy. It might be.
I want one flex day, I want to work one day a week from home. And if they have a job that's flexible and allows them to do that. Now, if you have an environment where you're saying we are in the office Monday to Friday, no flex time and we're rigid on our salary and all that, well, you're going to lose them. But if you're willing to manage the individual and meet them where their needs are,
Rob Dwyer (08:58.52)
Yeah.
Corey (09:07.611)
and you have a human conversation with them, you'll be shocked at how little they will ask for to stick around and not have to go through the pain of trying to get someone in who's as good as they are. There used to be a nasty stat about counter offers and counter offers back in the day, it used to be, I think it was over 85 % of people who accept a counter offer, cease to continue working in that job within six months.
whether by their choice or the employer's choice. So counter offers used to be the kiss of death. I think that's changed. And if as a business owner, you can get out your own way and tap into some humility and be able to say to people, you're super valuable. I really wanna keep you as long, I know I can't keep you forever, but I wanna keep you as long as I can.
and there's gonna come a point where I won't be able to afford you and someone's gonna come calling and I will absolutely help you with that transition. But I don't know, like we might have a two year window here, so how can I keep you for the next two years and maybe hire someone underneath you that you can mentor because you are integral to my business and if you were to walk out in two weeks, it's gonna hurt. What employee would be, wouldn't be,
Rob Dwyer (10:26.668)
Yeah.
Corey (10:32.207)
static to hear a message like
Rob Dwyer (10:36.226)
Yeah, especially if it's proactively delivered, right? That's the kind of message where, yeah, yeah, where you know, OK, I really am valued here. And I don't have to wait for someone else to make that offer. I know what's happening here. You touched on.
Corey (10:39.781)
before they get an offer and come to you.
Corey (10:53.233)
And Rob, just one other thing. The other thing they might say is, I don't feel like I'm using all my skills. I want to be involved in more aspects of the business. And you say, great, what do you want to get involved in? So they might not even ask for money. They might ask for more experience to help them prepare for that move. Especially if you say, I know you're leaving at one point. And they say, well, to make that move, I think I need to get involved in project management or whatever it is. And you can say, yeah, okay, let's work that in. But under the condition that if you're thinking of leaving, you know,
I gotta be part of that and I can help you with it, but let's do it together so we can have a smooth transition.
Rob Dwyer (11:30.424)
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point. You mentioned something that I just wanted to dive into a little bit. And that is the impact of, we hear all the time now, this work from home versus back to the office dynamic. And obviously there are businesses where work from home is not an option, right? So if I work in a warehouse, I can't work from home. If I work...
you know, out in the field as it were. I can't work from home, but there are lots of jobs that can be done from home. And there's, I think a few different mindsets out there with business leaders, but I'm curious from your perspective in working with businesses that are trying to source leaders in their organization often, what have you seen from potential
when you talk to them about a place that is offering flex or work from home full-time versus you need to be on site all the time.
Corey (12:40.423)
So I think a couple of definitions might help and the way I look at it is flexible and inflexible jobs. So you're right, if you work in a warehouse and you're an order picker, you're standing at a CNC machine, that's an inflexible job, you can't do that from home. But within that business, there are sales, there's marketing, there's administration, which could be done from home. And those would be the flexible roles.
So let me kind of give you my experience in the market. I think the definition of flexibility has changed and the pendulum has swung back a bit. But what I experience when people are looking for flexibility and work, it might be a day or two from home. But what's most important to people is the flexibility to, if I have a doctor's appointment and it's at 11 a.m.
I don't want to drive 20 minutes to work, then leave work for 20 minutes, go to the doctor's office, drive back to work 20 minutes, work for another three hours, drive home and then work at home for three hours because I two hours or three hours of work going to a doctor's appointment. What people will say is, just want the flexibility. If I have an appointment, I can just work from home, go to my appointment and come back home and finish my work day.
And my experience has been it's not so they can not work. It's so they can get their work done and but still have time in their evening and not have to work extra to get the work done they need to for that day. Or the other side of that is, child is in a competitive sport or in band or whatever it might be. And every Thursday they play and their games are early. It's at like five o'clock.
So I would need to leave at four so I can go pick them up and I don't want to miss any of their games. And then if there's anything that needs to be done when we get home from the game or the event after dinner, I'll plug in and I'll finish up what I need to finish up. So more and more what I'm hearing is that is the definition of flexibility, or that's more of it. There's still that it's great to have a day from home or do whatever it is.
Corey (15:04.975)
Again, dealing in probabilities. This is the information I would push back to a business owner. If they say we require, even if it's a flexible role, we require them to be in the office. And I say, fantastic. So let's do some math.
Corey (15:23.889)
We need to look at a 10 mile radius around your office. Those are the people that are willing to come into work. Now let's say for argument's sake, there are 100 qualified people to do the role you want in that 10 mile radius. Well, 20 % of those people are interested in fully in office role. So we just went from a pool of 100 to a pool of 20. Now of that 20, we have to find someone with the right experience.
the right culture fit, the right capacity, and they want to start a new job. It's a very small, tight target. A candidate pool of 20 is, it's very, very small. And 100 people in a 10 mile radius is maybe a generous number, depending on the role. So if you go hybrid, okay, we're gonna give you two days flexibility. Now that,
Rob Dwyer (16:08.076)
Mm-hmm.
Corey (16:20.131)
radius might stretch to 20 miles because if only have to drive to work three days a week and I have that flexibility, I might be willing to travel more in my car on those days. So let's say it's a 20 mile radius and that number goes from 100 to 400.
But now 80 % of that 400 will be interested in the role because 20 % of people out there want full remote.
about 40 or 60 % of people are looking for hybrid, then there's a 20 % of people that went in office and that remote schedule would be interesting to them too. So now we have 80 % of 400, 320 people in our candidate pool to draw from. It's a much bigger pool than 20. So let's say now we have a remote.
Rob Dwyer (17:09.762)
Yeah.
Corey (17:15.171)
And let's use Houston, for example. It's 100 % remote and I have two or three clients that have remote businesses, but they want people in the city. That's great. So we have now within Houston, instead of a person candidate pool or a 400 person candidate pool, now we have a thousands of people candidate pool and 80 % of that huge pool are interested in full remote.
the people that are looking for hybrid and the people that are looking for full remote. The people that want in office won't be interested. So it's a numbers game, just like building your sales or make enough calls, you get the business, all that stuff.
Every business owner is allowed to say, here's what I want and here's what I'm gonna pay. You can make up whatever you want. But the market will correct you very quickly. you can go back to a business, and I do all the pre-work, I've been in the market enough and I can say, it's not gonna work. We won't, you're not gonna find the person you're looking for, so we have two options. You can either lower your expectations.
Rob Dwyer (18:12.034)
Yeah.
Corey (18:26.063)
or we can increase the package to make it more attractive, but the way you have it, you're trying to split the baby here, and we're not going to find what you want. You won't be happy, and we're not gonna have the impact you want. So let's adjust expectations and say we're really getting someone who we're hiring more for potential than experience, and the ROI on them is gonna be two years, and you're gonna have to train them, and you're gonna have to go through growing pains. Or we can adjust the package up and get the experience you need to get that shorter ROI and the immediate impact.
But playing in the middle, a lot of people kind of think, well, if we stay in the mid range, we should find the person we're looking for. And mid range is a scary place to be.
Rob Dwyer (19:06.446)
Yeah, absolutely. It also strikes me and I know this will resonate with you being in Houston. There are times, particularly when you've got a lot of flexible jobs where people are not going to be able to work because of severe weather events. And if you've got everyone in that 10 mile radius, they may all be impacted by those same events. Whereas if you've got people a little bit more spread out,
Corey (19:30.907)
That's a point, yeah.
Rob Dwyer (19:35.19)
Yeah, it may be harder for everyone to get together, but when those severe weather events occur, it doesn't have the same impact on my business operation.
Corey (19:41.553)
Good point.
Yeah, some people are still up and running, right? And kind of reaching out to clients or whatever saying, hey, here's what's going on. We're going to be with you. know. So yeah, you have that communication. That's an interesting point. I'd never thought of that.
Rob Dwyer (19:46.795)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (19:56.172)
Yeah, I want to explore something else. I feel like I hear fractional roles, particularly in the C-suite, as being like the new hotness. help us understand what is a fractional role, and what are some of the advantages and drawbacks that you've seen related to
Corey (20:07.526)
Yeah.
Corey (20:17.627)
Yeah, it's a great question. So fractional is.
As it would apply to a small business, maybe can't afford, they probably can't afford a full-time CFO, but they need that experience, maybe someone who can look at their financials, help them with an acquisition, help them with sale of assets, help them with something, going to the bank to get a bank loan or a line of credit, which would fall under treasury. So they might not have that expertise in the building.
but they can't afford or nor do they really have a need to bring someone in full time. So fractional is, I guess the easiest way to explain it is you would get a fraction of that person's time. They would give you 10%, 20%, whatever that agreement is. And it's never in terms of percentage of time, but they would outline the scope of the duties that they would perform for you, kind of give you an idea of how many hours a week they think that would take and what.
what those objectives are, what are you trying to do? And then you would pay them that agreed amount, which would be a fraction of what it would cost to bring in someone on a full-time basis. The advantages are you get a level of expertise into your business in whatever area it could be. It could be CFO, it could be that finance piece, it could be human capital when it comes to me.
It could be an operations director who is really educated in lean management or Six Sigma to help make your operation more effective. It could be a fractional director of sales who's just working with your sales team to get them aligned and focused. You're getting a level of expertise from these people that isn't otherwise available to you or within your four walls. They're professional.
Corey (22:19.375)
It's in their best interest, it's in my best interest for you to be successful. Because I want to keep working with you and I want you to tell all your friends about me and if I don't do that, you're going to say, stay away from this guy, let me tell you about a guy who you should be talking to. So it's in our best interest to do the best job we can. Plus I think with the Fractional crew too, there's a level of passion there that they love doing what they do and they're really good at what they do and they really do want to help.
The challenge is the communication piece. Is the business owner ready to hear the message? Is the fractional professional delivering the right message? So there's often that kind of feeling out process, but those would be the pros. The cons are probably really well aligned with that. They deliver a scope of work. So if you kind of come and say,
hey, I need help with this too. They might say, okay, well, that's not what we talked about and that's gonna take more of my time. sometimes the bill can maybe creep up in terms of services, but I think most fractional people are really professional and would either say, okay, well, let's talk about that. Can we afford to do that? Am I really the right person? The other side of fractional that I have seen people will scope creep and take on things that aren't.
within their area of expertise, because they're already there. And you can become pretty protective of your clients, because you know, like, and trust them, and you want the best for them. And it might be easier just to say, well, I can do that. It's not what I do, but I can do it for you, rather than bringing someone else in and maybe taking money out of the budget that might otherwise go to you. Or now you have to split your...
attention of that business owner with someone else or they might come in and say something that's contradicting to your beliefs or the way you do things. So that's the other side of it. Sometimes these fractional people can get really protective of their clients. Of course, I'm going to say this, but it's true. I'm not. I do human capital. And when my business owners come to me and say, hey, what about this? What about that? I have
Corey (24:38.319)
some really good relationships with some really amazing people that I trust. And we have done lots of work together and I have no problem saying, yep, I have someone who can do that. I'm not the person. I could probably do it, but it's not gonna be great. And I'm focused over here. So let me put you in contact with someone that I know would be great for you. But I think that would be some of the drawbacks.
Rob Dwyer (25:03.614)
So speaking of hiring people, whether it's fractional or full time, obviously a lot of small business owners start off maybe solo or maybe it's a partnership and they may bring on people here and there to help with certain aspects of the business. But is there a
something that sticks up as a flag that says, hey, now's the time for you to look at hiring someone maybe at that executive level, whether it's C-suite or just below that. What's that key indicator for a business owner to say, I should probably get some.
Corey (25:51.857)
Yeah, and that is a great question. When someone starts a business, they hire their neighbor, they hire their neighbor's cousins, they hire their friends, and that's the exact right way to start a business. That's how you do it, unless you have VC funding, which is not the majority of small businesses. We're bootstrappers, we try to squeeze a penny and make a nickel. So that's the absolute right way to start a business.
The worst part about this is everyone will pitch in and give you everything they have to help that entrepreneur be successful and share in that success. And if they do a great job, what will eventually happen in most cases, the demands and the requirements of that business will outgrow the ability and experience of the people running it. And this is where
Everyone is doing everything. You might have a title, but it doesn't mean that's all you do. there's a fire over here. We'll all run over here. now it's over here. We all run over here and we're all helping out. And that's the right thing to do in a small business. But eventually the requirements and demands of that business will outgrow that way of managing the business. So they'll sit down and try to think, well, who's in charge of what? And the people that
You used to deliver on time and be your go-to people will start to struggle. They'll start to miss deadlines. They'll start to get frustrated. You'll start having more unpleasant conversations than you used to. You'll start wondering what is going on with so-and-so. They used to be my right hand and now it's weird. It's different.
What that means is...
Corey (27:51.939)
it's time to start bringing in professionals and slotting people in where they should be and making hard conversations. The worst conversation a business owner will ever have bar none. I always work from the premise, small business owners are great people doing the best they can and they don't open a business to have
to have to hire. They don't start a business because they love hiring people. They don't open business because they love having shitty conversations. They don't open a business because they love lean management and safety manuals. They open it because they have a passion in doing whatever it is they do. And the hardest conversation they will ever have, bar none, is sitting down across the table from someone that they've been working shoulder to shoulder with for two, five, 10, 12 years, whatever it is.
and saying, thank you so much for getting this business where it is today, but I don't think you can help me get it to there. And so what do we do about that? And so you asked about indicators about when it is time to upgrading, I will call it upgrading the leadership. It's at that crux when it just isn't as fun.
An easy way to think about it is when your only input is time, so the only way to grow the business is for everyone to work harder and work longer. That is the tipping point where you go, we don't have the right process. We don't have the right system. We don't have, and we don't have anyone in this building who understands how to build that to make us more efficient and produce more in the same amount of time.
As you know, one of the sayings I have is you're running a $15 million business on a $10 million process. it's like redlining the engine in a car eventually it's going to melt. And so if you're feeling that, that's the time where you have to step back and say, we have some constraints in the business around leadership or experience, and we need to upgrade and bring in more experience and more
Rob Dwyer (29:59.299)
Okay.
Corey (30:16.935)
into our business. The way I always kind of break it out is in a small business if you're 25 million dollars a year you do not need a C-suite. There's nowhere for that person to go and really what they become is an overvalued asset at that point. It's not a true C executive. So I always recommend start with managers. Then you can promote them to directors. Then you can promote them to
VPs, then you can go into your C-suite if you want, once you get wildly successful. But what the trap people will fall into is they have someone, they don't want to lose them. They're a manager. we'll, we'll call you the chief executive of chief manufacturing officer. You're really, an operations manager, maybe a director. And if you go into the world and say, I'm the chief operations COO over there, they're going to go.
Yeah, but you have three years of experience that how and how much revenue do you do? Well, we do $12 million a year. Okay, well, we're a $500 million a year company. I don't think you can bring any value to me. So you're you're not doing a service to your people by doing that. But I understand the need to show your appreciation to your people by, you know, throwing these big titles on them.
Corey (31:47.61)
It hurts them in the long run. just start with managers, especially if you're small business owner, and then move up to a director. And that move should take a while. That should be an 18, 24, 36 month endeavor for them to gain that experience and move into a director role.
Rob Dwyer (32:07.958)
Yeah, it can be really challenging understanding what people have in terms of skill set when they've got these inflated or odd titles at a small business that you wouldn't see in a larger organization. Most larger organizations kind of have these things mapped out with specific competencies associated with them.
There are a lot of businesses that play pretty fast and loose with titles and that it is, and that's fine as long as they stick around in that organization. But as soon as you try to go outside of the organization, not only is it a challenge for the people that are maybe looking at you for a potential role, but it can skew your vision of what you're capable of.
Corey (32:42.856)
is cheaper than giving people a razor.
Rob Dwyer (33:05.966)
or what types of roles you should really be looking at because title does not equal skill necessarily if that's the way things have been going. And to your point, a much larger organization is going to be like, well, yeah, but our people who have that title do a whole heck of a lot more or have way more experience. they're not necessarily the same. Speaking of playing fast and loose.
I want to talk about in your experience, what kind of red flags do you see when going into an organization where either you just say, you know what, I'm probably not the right fit for you to help you find what you're looking for, or we need to take a step back before we identify a particular
person or persons to help your business and really focus on some of the company culture. Because you talked about culture fit being one of those really, one of those three keys, but have you walked into a business before and gone, I'm not gonna find you the right person because your culture here is just a disaster to start with. So maybe we ought to start there. And if so, what did that look like?
Corey (34:29.831)
Yeah?
So yeah, again, that's an interesting one.
Corey (34:39.545)
Your, I think the mistake a business owner will make is if they're trying to change the culture. They understand their culture isn't great and they're trying to move away from that. What they will tell someone is when they're hiring them is they'll explain how great the culture is in a forward looking manner. What they're trying to say is this is what we're working towards.
And then when the person starts on day one, they go, you lied to me. This place, people hate each other. You told me it was a lot of fun and you're all great team. And the first thing I saw was two people fighting at the water cooler. And so that becomes a communication issue. And I have worked with a lot of clients who wanted to change a culture and we put a plan together to help them do that. And part of that is when you hire someone saying to them, we don't have a great culture right now.
but we see you as being the first step into changing that. And we know we have things to work on and we're going to be looking to you to help us move things in the right direction. And the right person will say, hell yeah, sign me up. That sounds good. Or they're going to say, no desire. I don't want to be in that shit storm. And that's cool too, right? And I think what the other thing a lot of people don't realize is
Someone is perfect for every culture.
And people will sell a culture that is aspirational maybe. They're trying to get there and they might not ever get there instead of just being honest about what they are. A silly example might be if this is an organization that's heavy on sales, sitting down and saying, we're cutthroat. Whoever sells the most eats the most. We post everyone's name on the wall every month. And if you're on the bottom of that list,
Corey (36:45.689)
It's not fun. And if you're at the top of the list, life is great. And if you're down to compete, well, welcome a board. But instead they might say something like, know, no, we have a great, great, you know, great atmosphere in the team and we all work together. We want everyone to be successful. And if you're, if you're not being successful, we're going to help you out. But the people at the, you know, we have so and so over there who's been at the top of the leaderboard every
every month for the last year and he's great, he's gonna help you out. No, he's not. And so they get in there and they realize that all the support and team camaraderie doesn't exist. And had they said, look, we're cutthroat, they might've said, this isn't for me. But if it's someone who used to be a former competitive athlete, they might say, I'm game, let's do this. I've been knocking people off the perch for the last 10 years, I'm good with that. What's my runway look like? How are you gonna help me do that?
It's not always about changing the culture as much as it's being honest about the culture. And for me, that's kind of, asked about red flags and it's really tricky because again, I don't believe the huge majority of business owners are trying to be manipulative or trying to mislead people or trying to run a bad business, right? It's just the huge majority of business owners are doing
everything they can and whatever they know to try to make their business work because they have a burden of making sure people can eat and pay their rent and put the kids through school. And it's a lot. It's a lot of pressure. And sometimes under pressure, people aren't at their best. And so we've got to recognize that. But for me, it's all about humility. And if a business owner can say, yeah,
Rob Dwyer (38:20.12)
Yeah.
Corey (38:39.437)
I've created a bad culture here and I want to change it and I'm like dedicated to it. Okay, great. Let's have a conversation. If they say, this is our culture. And sometimes I'll say to them, don't change culture. It's not who you are. You're not going to be comfortable in here. You're going to be trying to, know, putting a bunch of words on a page and sticking it on the wall isn't culture in a small business environment where you have 30 employees and that business owner is walking around and everyone knows them. That's the culture.
You are the culture. And so be honest about it and embrace it and utilize that. And you'll weed, you'll either have people say, I'm out, finally, we're telling the truth around here, this is great. Or you have people say, yeah, this is, I'm not comfortable in this and they might leave. I think you'll be surprised how few people, because if people have been there long-term, they're probably thriving in the culture that you want to change. don't know. Unless it's a really detrimental negative culture. But for the most part, you could have,
Rob Dwyer (39:09.42)
Mm-hmm.
Corey (39:40.155)
the ping pong table and let people work when they want and have naps at work, or you could be the person who's to a point that highly competitive. Now, if you get to a thing where we want everyone at their desk and we time your breaks, and I'm probably not gonna work with that person because I think now we've, again, I don't think they're trying to be bad people. I think they're trying to control aspects of their business. They've been maybe,
taken advantage of before because they did something wrong and it's kind of stuck with them. But you gotta walk them back and that's where that humility comes in to be able to say, okay, let's kind of pump the brakes here and talk about how's this gonna affect things? Oftentimes what I'll do is explain the job back to them and say, would you want that job?
Rob Dwyer (40:29.322)
Hahaha
Corey (40:30.247)
And sometimes, I bet you 50 % of the time, they'll say, yeah, I would do that. I'm like, no, you wouldn't. No one would. I can't in good conscience go out and find someone and tell them this is an amazing opportunity and have them leave the security of a job that they're doing really well in and they're paying their bills and they have some security to plug them in here.
and put them at risk. I can't and I won't ever do that. So the one huge red flag for me is if a business owner says, well, we'll hire them. If they don't work out in three months, we'll just fire them. always, nope, that's a deal breaker for me. We're dealing with human beings here. These people have lives and families and responsibilities. You have to be, if we get the right person, you have to be committed to making it work. So that's a big red flag for me.
Rob Dwyer (41:25.496)
Yeah. Yeah.
Corey (41:25.895)
that kind of turn and burn mentality. just, can't do it. I don't, can't sleep well at night knowing that I'm putting someone at risk.
Rob Dwyer (41:31.662)
Yeah.
Rob Dwyer (41:35.128)
When you were talking about just being honest with your culture, it just made me think like there are, when I think about the sports world, right, there are coaches out there that thrive in that turnaround situation, right? Particularly in the college ranks, those, they want to go into a team that hasn't won for a while and turn them around and turn them into a winner. But after they're a winner for a few years, they start to get a little restless, right? And they're looking for that next challenge. Whereas,
There are a lot of other coaches that they don't want to go to a team that hasn't had a winning season in five or 10 years. Like that scares the bejesus out of them and they don't want anything to do with it. They want to go into, you know, someplace that already has a reputation for winning because it's easier to get the best players in and the fan base is already supportive and you just don't have to worry about those aspects. And I think
to your point, those are two very different people, but they both have a home. They just have to figure out where that is.
Corey (42:39.015)
100%, yeah. And I'll give you, if you're ever interviewing someone, so a lot of what I do is what we call builders. You're coming into a department that needs help. We've got a bunch of good people doing the best job they can, but we need direction, we need process, we need procedure. There's gonna be a bit of culture change here. You're gonna have to kind of roll out process, get buy-in. And you want a hell yeah or a hell no from that person.
And what you don't want to fall for is, I think that could be fun. That's a hell no.
Rob Dwyer (43:16.056)
Ha ha ha ha ha
Corey (43:18.119)
That's a hell no, right? Because the right person is gonna go, yeah, I love that. That's what I do, that's what I've done. The best job I ever had, I did that. And I loved that job. It was my favorite job. You don't want the person who thinks about it and says, yeah, I think I could do that. That is a hell no. They know. People know inherently if they like the build or not. And I always give the analogy of if you're building a house.
Rob Dwyer (43:19.938)
Yeah.
Corey (43:47.109)
The first crew that come in do the foundation and the framing. The second group of people that come in do your electrical, they do your drywall, they do all that stuff. The final crew that comes in is the finishing crew. They do your baseboards, your rails, your countertops, cupboards, all that good stuff. Finishing crew doesn't do foundation. Foundation crew doesn't do electrical and plumbing, and the electrical and plumbers don't do the finishing work. None of them
do, want to do, can do, desire to do each other's work. They're all very specialized in what they do. Guys that pour concrete and frame houses are very specialized. The guys that do your baseboards and countertops, they're very specialized. Electricians and plumbers are very specialized. Drywallers, those guys are super specialized. Tilers. So, you have to understand what phase of building your business is in and get that right person.
And for me, it's the builders and maintainers. It's, do you want to go to environment that is pretty sound and having good results and just make small adjustments as you go to maximize what you can get out of that team and that department? Or do you want to go into scorched earth and build it from the ground up? Or do you want to go into a business where we have good people doing the best we can, but we got to roll out process procedure and get some buy-in. And those are kind of the three layers that you're working in.
and having someone clearly understand that and asking them, does that excite you? And having them think and go, I think I could, it sounds fun. That's not the answer. What you want to hear is, yeah, I've done that before and I love doing that.
Rob Dwyer (45:32.45)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's great, Corey. I want to not everyone is going to look to you whether or not they should. Some people are going to go the DIY route to hiring, and maybe that's just where they are at the moment, but. I. I want to know if you could give them one tip to just help them along that process one.
Corey (45:45.596)
Yep.
Corey (45:49.777)
That's cool. Yeah, if it works for you, it works for you.
Rob Dwyer (46:02.382)
Pro tip from Cory or one lesson learned that you're like if I could just get everyone to do this their lives would be easier and maybe it might make my life easier when they come to me as well. But what's that? What's that one pro tip?
Corey (46:17.223)
So it's a bit of a big one because it's about process. So the hiring process should be set in stone. And what I mean by that is in your company you should have a champion, hiring champion who knows your business. First of all, clearly define the role, hire for capacity, and then create the process. So the process should be your champion is the person who
every resume goes to, or if the owner wants to screen them out, no, no, no, here are the people I want you to reach out to, that champion should reach out to all those people and they should have a scorecard. And it should be a 15 minute pre-screen. And the purpose of that pre-screen is, do you have what we need? So they should be checking off things as they go. And if that person has 80 % or more of what they need,
They should move them along. If they don't have more than 80%, tell them right there, I don't see this being a good fit. Thank you for your time. Maybe in the future, let's keep in touch and stop the process with them. Don't waste another second on them. So here's where it gets really interesting. If that champion,
who knows the business very well and understands what good people in the business look like, thinks this is gonna be a good person in your business, the next step should be the biggest interview. So they should say, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I want you to come in. So say we're hiring someone to be a supervisor in the manufacturing facility. Do you have time to do a video interview with our director of operations?
an hour video interview. Now, if that director of operations likes a person, he's gonna invite them in on site, give them a tour and have them meet some stakeholders. The same stakeholders for every, so you're gonna have your team, you're gonna have your champion, you're gonna have your hiring manager, and then you're gonna have all the stakeholders that are gonna meet that person.
Corey (48:36.155)
The philosophy being, the way most people do it is, someone from that department calls and says, this is great. Come in for an interview. They talk to people. They spend, you know, three, six, eight man hours talking to the individual. They go home. Then the director of operations says, come on in, let's talk. He spends an hour with them, walks out and says, yeah, no, we're not going to hire that person. We've just wasted six, eight, 10 man hours to get a no. If you put the hiring...
manager first and he says no, you've wasted one hour and a 15 minute pre-screen. All of the stakeholders that are doing jobs are still doing their job, they haven't wasted a second, right? Now think of the message. The previous way where they go through all the stakeholders and then to the hiring manager, that becomes a numbers game. Let's just interview a bunch of people and throw them over there and hopefully that person will say yes to some of them.
But if the hiring manager goes first and says, yeah, come on in and meet my team, what's the message now? I like them, you guys are free to hire that person, right? And so this is how you save time. The traditional way of hiring, if you had a process in your business where 80 to 90 % of time spent was wasted time,
Rob Dwyer (49:47.982)
Yeah.
Corey (50:04.773)
What would you do with that process?
Rob Dwyer (50:08.29)
You change it right away. Yeah. Yeah.
Corey (50:09.991)
or you'd have a real hard look at it, at minimum, right? And that's what posting jobs online and screening resumes looks like. You spend more time screening people out of the process than you do screening them in. So that's why I would say have your hiring manager, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, yes. The yes people, that champion is just doing pre-screens, bang, bang, bang, bang, going back to the hiring manager. Here are the people, here are their scorecards, here's why I scored them the way I did.
They meet the key experiences we need and the nice to haves, they have some of it they don't have. Then you schedule that meeting, then you do stakeholders. It's a much more effective and efficient process and it will improve your hiring. You won't be able to measure how much better your hiring will be because when you include different people in the process, if...
If three people interview candidate A and three different people interview candidate B and you sit down to debrief, you're not talking about the same things. You haven't asked the same questions. I might be talking about how they do this and you might be talking about how they do that. And it doesn't matter now. We have no baseline. But if you have the same people talk to every person, when you sit down to debrief, you have that baseline where they can go, okay, well, I like this person. Here's what I didn't like. I got that too. Boom, boom, boom. So we're all dialed in.
Rob Dwyer (51:23.886)
Hmm.
Corey (51:38.599)
Each person should be asking the same questions in the same order and they should be able to Clearly articulate when you sit down We're all talking about the same things and it's all the stuff on the scorecard
Rob Dwyer (51:53.686)
Yeah, I love that. Well, Corey, if someone wanted to reach out to you because maybe they need some help. What's the best way for them to do that?
Corey (51:58.597)
Yes. Yeah.
Corey (52:05.127)
Cool, so they can go to the website which is keyhire, one word, K-E-Y-H-I-R-E, at keyhire.solutions. There's no dot com, it's dot solutions. So keyhire.solutions.com, or no, not dot com, keyhire.solutions. And on there, they'll be able to sign up for a conversation, consultation. We're help first. I'm happy to talk to people and give away advice. They can go try it themselves.
We don't try to sell, there's no weirdness, we just wanna have a conversation and chat with you. They can connect with me on my LinkedIn profile, Corey Harlock, that's a great way. Or they could call me at 832-807-9583, I'm happy to talk to anyone.
Rob Dwyer (52:48.534)
There you got it. Hey, we will have the website down in the show notes. We will have Corey's LinkedIn down in the show notes. So feel free to send him a connection request. And Corey, I can't thank you enough for being on Next In Queue today. Thank you.
Corey (52:53.713)
Beautiful.
Corey (53:00.123)
Yeah, yeah.
Corey (53:05.927)
It's my pleasure, I've enjoyed it. Thank you.